God, Religion, the Universe and Everything

[Calena]

I've been in a very interesting discussion with Guardian Angel and candyrose for a while now. However it took part very off topic in the SPN section. So as to no longer interrupt people from singing Dean's praises I decided to to the right thing, abide to forum rules and open a particular thread for this discussion.

Everyone is welcome to join. That said, we won't tolerate insults in any direction.
Religious feelings are likely to get hurt in here (not by insults, but by challenging them), so if you have religious feelings and don't want them to be hurt, please stay out of this thread. Whining to me how my posts hurt your religious feelings will get you mocked.
If you like to engage in a civil discussion about the topics stated in the thread title, we warmly welcome you.

I thought it be interesting to add a poll about where one stands on Dawkin's scale of belief. I'm a 6, btw. I hope I will manage to get the poll up, never did that before.

Here's my answer to a post made by Guardian Angel in the Dean-oholics thread. Feel free to comment on this, read up on our earlier discussion and comment on topics we touched earlier, or bring up your on topics to discuss.

Well, thanks! I appreciate the compliment...although, I must clarify something. I believe that AIDS is a consequence of sin, not a punishment. There's a difference. As your scientists would say, "For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction."

Course. If you sleep with someone who has the HI-Virus without a condom, you very likely get it too, unless you are one of those immune hookers candy was talking about. (Doesn’t it strike you as a bit ironic that god of all people granted prostitutes immunity? )
So that’s a consequence, but not of sin, but of unresponsible behavior. And, to go back to free will, what if a husband has an affair with someone who has the HIV, catches it, and passes it on to his unaware wife? Where did the wife sin and therefore deserve the consequence of getting HIV?
Consequence of what sin, to begin with? Being gay? Getting a blood transfusion?

On the contrary, if I had not already witnessed numerous amounts of hard core evidence that God exists, you'd have a fair chance of converting me!

That’s argument from personal experience and that isn’t valid. I believe that you believe you encountered god, but that doesn’t make it true.

Secondly, all living things have an innate need to grow, regardless of circumstances...it is simply the that we can choose to let the bad times help us grow stronger and faster, or not.

I agree that that’s the way it is. Still doesn’t explain why god didn’t create it another more friendly way.

Hard to argue with cold hard evidence ain't it?

Still you refuse to give up!

Prove it!

Can’t right now! Need more time!

Au Contraire!
Lest we forget, Creationism has also been termed through scientific means a "theory". Only difference is ours can be proven!

Aside from everything else I could say to this: American Courts have ruled that Intelligent Design is NOT a theory.

Pascal's wager is based on reason, the simple reasoning skills that all intelligent beings possess that can discover what is best. BTW, Jesus also lived before Darwin, and he's still right.

What has Jesus to do with Evolutionary Theory? Nothing – humankind wasn’t as far in science at the time Jesus lived.
Reasoning skills are a great thing, but they are bound to reach a false conclusion when the person using them has wrong or too little information. Therefore, with the information available after Darwin, Pascal would have come to another conclusion.

Not so, the Bible teaches that He promised never to destroy the earth in water again. Therefore, it will never happen again!

Yippey. Of course that doesn’t go for various parts of the earth, I take it? New Orleans is not of the hook, then.
It’s interesting that you give me a scientific argument, like the shifting of the earth axis as reason for the flood, and when I accept it, you renounce it.

To copy a book by hand when it's all you ever do takes months. And like I said, most copies are copies of copies, not the original mazaritic text.

That’s exactly my point! A big percentage of bible texts is not the original texts and therefore not the exact words the original authors wrote down. When you take into consideration that even the original texts were written long after the events and with the personal agenda of the authors in mind, how can anyone think the bible is the true word of god?

Well, you're not throwing insults or slander, so that sort of excludes you...I was making a point. However, consider that the word persecution can include anything that challenges faith.

Persecution for me means things like denying you human and civil rights.
If we go by your definition you are persecuting everyone on this earth who has a different faith to yours, including other branches of Christianity. Not nice!

I find it easy enough to read. Plain and simple to me, black and white.

In the real world things aren’t always black and white, in fact most of the time shades of grey prevail.

Sure! That's why we have people like missionaries. There have even been documented encounters between man and God before there was any mention of Him to their people. Imagine that, a living God that lives...

But how can people know before being told by missionaries that Jesus died on the cross?

I look forward to it. Although, I am in the middle of moving right now, so It might take me longer to reply than usual.

NP, I’m busy myself!

[smileyone]

Interesting topic this..... You will always get a wide range of opinions on this subject....

I am a bit in the middle of this.... I have a nine year old who would die on the spot if you said to him there was no God... His belief is that strong... I can't shake it...
He knows I am torn somewhere in the middle... wrestling with the lot of it....
I also have a strong spiritual background which allows me to give myself a wider choice/view... It's a personal view though...

I will post reply to comments on here from time to time... and look forward to reading everyone elses views...

[candyrose]

Well, thanks! I appreciate the compliment...although, I must clarify something. I believe that [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]AIDS[/color][/color] is a consequence of sin, not a punishment. There's a difference. As your scientists would say, "For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction."

I find it hard to believe that you still can't see that AIDS can be spread in a variety of ways...not just by sexual contact and/or drug use. If I am not mistaken, in another post you even said it came directly from sexual activity....immoral behavior. You yourself could easily get AIDS if the circumstances are right. Say you are driving down the road and witness a horrific accident and go to help. There's debris everywhere....you end up getting cut by a piece of glass that came from the windshield when it shattered. You think go to help the other civilians you are trying to help the victims out of the car. The victims are covered in blood....maybe one of them is a small child...and you go to help carry them out. The child has AIDS....and, again, is covered in blood...which comes in contact with the wound or wounds you have....it is possible that you could get AIDS...and is this is a sin...to try and save a life? NO? Just because you try to live a moral life and believe in God, it doesn't mean you are immune to the virus.

[Calena]

Ah smiley, you cut my atheist lead in half!

Well, like you said, you're 9 year old kid, who I hold in high esteem from what you tell me about him, btw, believes in god. Kids are supposed to believe in fairy tales, it's natural.

GuardianAngel, I don't want to give the impression to gang up on you with candy, but picture the scenario she described. Can you honestly tell me when you catch HIV by saving an infected kid's life you would see it as a great opportunity to rise above and grow?

[candyrose]

[smileyone]

Originally Posted by Calena

Ah smiley, you cut my atheist lead in half!

Well, like you said, you're 9 year old kid, who I hold in high esteem from what you tell me about him, btw, believes in god. Kids are supposed to believe in fairy tales, it's natural.

No no no no no!!!! There is belief in fairy tales and then there is belief in God... as with that boy!!! Seriously... as much as I agree with you that some don't recognise the difference between those two.... that is a child who definitely knows the difference between the two! He is even very busy at the moment trying to organise his own baptism.... Seriosly, the thought he is putting into it... would make you think more of an adult doing it then a focussed little boy.... Jeez, I wish he applied himself a bit more to more areas of his life as well!!!

On the really funny side... whilst we were on holidays, last wednesday night... there was a really c**p Karoake night in the entertainments area.... and many went up to sing varying degrees of the typical songs one does on these nights... my little Mini Me.... went up to the front... opened a big book full of about 1,000 choices of songs... and seriously... do you know what he picked AND sung????

The gospel version of Amazing Grace!!!!

I swear I am not joking..... I even camcordered the thing.... He sung quite happily... immersed in his own little world... probably getting the best clap of the night....
My friend was sitting beside me wetting herself at his attempt at spreading the good word about....
BTW.... If I could only work out how to put it from my tape on the camcorder and onto an actual disc, I would send you a copy of it.... It wasn't that bad really...

Neither was his 'Haven's Got Talent' audition and follow up final thing on thursday!!! He did the song 'Shine' by Take That on that one.... There were two others there... one kid doing a ballet dance to some song from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and another young girl balancing a spoon on her nose for about ten minutes!!! They were each given a certificate and a prize after...

As much as I would like to think I have a huge influence on how my own flesh and blood thinks etc... As much as we agree on many things, like TV programmes, choice of foods, movies, etc...etc... On this subject... we have differing views... we debate this point frequently.... He is a huge bible reader, always has been... I am not and probably never will be!!!

Ok then to support my theory in his views... I will describe a general Sunday afternoon in the world of Smiley & Son.... [BTW... you need to close your eyes for this one....]...

Sorry.... Background first......

Ok.... 10am... Sunday morning, is usually church time for us.... I tend to go thru spurts of this one... I find the church group I go to, although are generally a very nice peace loving lot... I can and do sometimes find them a little closed minded to anyone who doesn't fit into their perfect little christian world at times.... I am not a happily married devout christian, who has never been divorced and would never ever comtemplate the thought of ever getting together with someone outside marraige at all.... which is what the vast majority of them in our local church seem to currently be like.... I honestly go sometimes and have to stand at the end of the room as the energeries they all give off ... make me queasy for days after... None of them ground themselves after they go thru any experience in there at all and that in turn makes them uneven in balance and thought....[ just go with me on that one....]...

AJ goes off to his kids club group... a group of about 40-50 kids who are all equally as passionate as he is about God, the bible, singing praises etc... The group is led by maybe 10 leaders who are all each in their early 20's... who are all very committed to the whole thing! AJ loves the males in this group particularly.... They are good role models for him.... He thinks the world of them! They are all generally married, engaged ...but living totally apart... and are deep into plans for marraige!!! They are a great influence on him... and he is confident enough to ask them about any aspect of his faith, or debate with them about any aspect of it.... as he has done in the past!!!

Ok so two full hours later of him being enlightened... and me being generally I dunno... sometimes, good... sometimes completely lost there... We join up together about 12pm again.... and head off home or out for afternoon...

Ok then.... You get the pic so far.... well now comes the fun bit....

On a Sunday afternoon, sometimes... when we are together for the weekend, on the weekends he is not with his dad [who is now a total athiest, btw...] we will head out for the day after church!

Most weeks we either walk or bus it into local mall.... It is so much easier then trying to find parking... We do the whole Ipod on bus thing.... Also as we get a day ticket.... It makes it more exciting for us as we feel we make the day up as we go along... take an adventure... if you like...

Anyhow.... picture the scene....

We are on one seat down towards back of bus.... Middle aged Devout christian couple clutching their huge well worn bibles so tightly, their hands are bleeding... sitting on a seat one side of us.... and a group of maybe four to six young secondary school kids... obviously out to spend a day to themselves down at the local mall... their mp3 players blaring with 2pac... and whatever is the hip songs nowadays... all sitting and talking really loudly the other side of us!!!

Get the picture so far....

Ok now if only Mini Me would leave the scene like that... but then he decides to spout something out really loud about what he learned earlier in Sunday School.... Yep both me and everyone else gets the whole bible lecture... whether we want to hear it or not!!! Now at this stage, I have to of course listen to him, smile and either answer or nod to him every now and then.... If only it was left at that.....

But this is generally when the older couple pipe in ... they start praising me for raising such a wonderful son... and almost start up a collective prayer session with him! He spouts out a chapter, verse and quote to something... and they are positively beaming with joy!!! He's lapping it up.... Loving it all... getting louder by the second.... in fact they are practically, between them doing everything but speaking in tongues.... Which given a longer journey and a bit more time... I well suppose they would...

And then we spin back to the other side to all the kids... who are picking themselves up from the floor at this stage.... They are wetting themselves at what they are hearing....and there's always one smart one who thinks they can make up a bible quote... and spawn out something.... seriously, they fool me everytime.... but not the boy... He's always be ready to give them an alternative quote... and will explain it to them in great detail.... and God help us... if one of them tries to sing a holy church hymn.... OMG.... He makes them all start again in unison... in time with one another .... with the old pair with the bibles clutching the hands together thanking the Lord for the bright turn in their days, whilst at the same time continuing their praise of Mini Me.... Til I am about to puke...

Seriously... you think I joke here.... I swear, I don't make any of that up.... the most amazing thing about it all is... that he is actually not precocious when he does this... He's actually quite charming and inoffensive... His passion tends to rub off on people even if it's just for their amusement... He is usually none the wiser that the kids don't share his enthusiasm as he normally honed in on the one kid who does....

On to a funny thought though.... I had this conversation with my Mini Me recently about the fact that I am not as comfortable in the church we go to as I used to be... and I told him that we would continue to go because he really loved it... and he immediately said to me that no church building actually makes or defines your relationship with you God... He told me we could change churches to another one, that is nearby.... one that is a little less happy clappy and more traditional for me and sadly one that is a little more strict Sunday school for him, [IMO]... but he immediately said... He was good with that, cause as long as he went.. he didn't care where! He then made his own steps to enquiring about his own baptism, which ironically is going to take place down in this church and not the one we are more familiar with!

I wish I had his passion for all this.... I don't... I have different views... doesn't mean that neither of us don't respect the others views though!

On the baptism front... As I was baptised at a few weeks old and knew nothing about it... I chose that any children I would ever have would be able to make up their own minds when the time was right... I was not going to chose their religion, their Godparents, their faith for them.... They would make that decision for themselves when the time was right for them.... and if they decided to chose none, well that was ok too for me... As long as they did not join any daft stupid cult that believed in mass sucides... I would support any child of mine all the way.... in the hope that one day, they got on the path that was the right one for them!!!

I made this choice adamently... the very day I got married in 1996.... I married a non catholic, and we got married in a beautiful catholic church in the West Of Ireland... Everything was beautiful about the day... BUT.... the fact that I was forced to sign this form stating that all of my future children would be brought up catholic... ONLY!!!
I despised that! Our marraige etc... was to be totally cancelled if I didn't sign on that line! I cried out loud to my dad and said to him that I would never sign that paper!

He turned to me and said....
'' Nobody on this earth will ever chase you down to see you follow thru on this... It's a stupid rule, that goes with this religion.... You do what you want... you have my blessing... Don't mind anything else!!!''
So I signed the damn paper....

I have to state though ... that at that time, I was a happy church goer, I was a happy catholic and I was proud of where I was with my faith.... But I also had a illness, that to that date was preventing me from ever having any children.... In fact, AJ was a fertility birth... my own little miracle... His dad and I were not expecting but always hoping for our own little miracle at that time... in fact, I lost three little babies after him.... three little angels, we are sure, without a doubt, are up in Heaven now looking down on us!!! So for us, babies weren't even a thought at that stage... I have thankfully now been successful in my treatment and can have babies more successfully now.... which is for me a good thing!!!

So anyway.... all this talk of already claiming our future childrens faiths etc... was upsetting me and my now ex husband greatly... I mean... what if... the kid wanted to be a protestant like their father was... or a jew like his two Great Grand Uncles or a muslim like my cousin or even a spiritualist like my grandmother or even a proper athiest like our friend Calena...... ... or whatever...you get my point.... It was never ever, IMO... mine or anyone elses call to make!!! For the record, so far... no one else has ever tracked us down from that church or religion to see we followed through on that signature on the dotted line....

I think I have succeeded so far in doing the right thing for him... I respect others who have done it differently to me, that is their choice!
And also for the record, I do not hate Catholism as such.... I just hate thier early recruiting techniques!!!

GuardianAngel, I don't want to give the impression to gang up on you with candy, but picture the scenario she described. Can you honestly tell me when you catch HIV by saving an infected kid's life you would see it as a great opportunity to rise above and grow?

I have to agree with the girls on this point too...

[Calena]

ROFL! Clip posting time!
"You don't have to pass an IQ test to be a senator" ... and the look on his face when he realized what he just said - priceless! Evidently you don't have to pass an IQ test to be US president either - but then again, that probably goes for any politican in any country.
What about the Republican vice presdential candidate and her pregnant teen daughter? I didn't catch much in the news, but I think it has been said she is against sex education. Go figure.

My very fave youtube clip at the moment:
Richard Dawkins on Bill Maher
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tRpbkpNpgw

[candyrose]

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fusea...deoid=42123503

[Calena]

Oh, nobody ever told me believing in god was rewarded by money. On the other hand, isn't that what Scientology claims?

smiley, I read your long post and will answer to it tomorrow. I have to go with doggie soon, and after that my buddy E. picks me up for a DVD watching session. Of course, as we are all out of SPN eps to watch we are not sure what we will be watching tonight.

[candyrose]

No more SPN to watch

You should watch Dexter!