Sam's Dream World?

[Phoenix_Rising]

I watched the Episode What is and What should never be. I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on what Sam's dream alternate reality would have been?

[smileyone]

Interesting question....

I moved it over to Plot discussion as I think it may get lost over in other threads in amongst all the Misha loving...

Do you not think that maybe Sam's alternate reality is much like the one that was protrayed in that ep... he had the girl... the study life he wanted... he had Mom... he had his own car... he was self reliant... he was, as normal siblings do from time to time in life, a bit estranged from his brother, simply because they had moved on from the younger days and their paths in life took them in different directions.
Maybe he was where he wanted to be in the sequences... I dunno... Ok fathers die sadly when kids are growing up, but unlike the alternative 'real' life... he did have some cracking times with his father at games and whatever... It's so long since I have watched that ep... I have forgotten most of it... It wasn't one of my favourites tbh, it was good though... my son loved it though... he got the whole point of it, as he did the alternate 'Terrible Life' ep....

That ep, btw... was pretty much the defining moment for me when I realised that although I have not met her yet... and most probably neither has my son, I would think... but I realised by listening to Mini Me's random comments about the ladies in that ep... that my future daughter in law... many years from now will most definitely have dark hair as opposed to blonde.... ... He was muttering about the girls the whole way thru it... saying how gorgeous they all were, yet only said he really liked Dean's dark haired nurse one!!! He muttered something about not quite liking blondes!!! ROFL.... Oh God... Raising a kid, the Supernatural way... you find out so much this way.... bless him!!! He really only stopped talking about the girls on two occasions throughout the ep... when he saw Dean 'mowing the lawn'... tears were rolling down his face for that one... and when the Djinn came into view.... He was appalled by all the 'tattoo' like drawing all over the Djinn... protesting, that he will live to regret doing all those or something similiar....

Ok then... back to original question.... What would Sam's alternative be?
Will have to think some more on a more different answer to above...

Good question though...

[ExtraCookie]

Howdy, Phoenix!

I do like this question! Good one! I find it difficult to answer, though. Sammy said that he's not "that (lawyer, normal-life havin') guy" anymore (I may've paraphrased there). So, I'm trying to figure out what his version of the Djin world would be. And, we have to remember, that the world surrounds a wish. Dean's world wasn't perfect; it was the world (I guess he, somewhere inside, envisioned) as it would've been like had Mary simply not died that night. Some key things were fantastic (Mary was alive and he had a calm, rather normal life and a terrific girlfriend); others were not good (John was still dead, he was a sort of n'er do well and he and Sammy weren't close). So, Sammy's would have the same rules.

I'm wondering if his wish would be for Mary to be alive or John to be. Maybe at his core, it would be that they both were still alive. Or maybe, with his sensitivity, compassion, and deep love for his brother (come on, we all know all of that is still inside there, at his core) and, probably, some guilt over, perhaps, feeling he has held Dean back (the show should explore this! It wouldn't surprise me if he were carrying guilt over having to be partially raised by Dean, therefore holding him back from some things, all his life), his simple wish would be that Dean was happy. (SO plausible! Think about it: He doesn't remember Mary and his relationship with John was so stormy. Dean's the person he's always loved the most and been closest to. They've always focused on how badly Dean needs Sammy, but Dean DOES remember Mary and he did have a stronger bond with John. Sammy's only MAJOR bond/love has been with Dean.) The mind can probably branch off into a hundred (at least) different scenarios from there; this thread could go on forever!

If all he wished was that Dean was happy, maybe, in his Djin world, he would be happy, too, simply because Dean was. He's always looked up to Dean, so maybe Dean would be some big shot; maybe even famous, while he's Mr. Humble Dude, happily hanging in the shadows, always eager for whatever attention Dean finds the time to pay him. Or, maybe, he wouldn't be. Maybe he'd be some lonely nerd (because maybe, in his head, if Dean hadn't had the baggage of a little brother to half raise dragging him down, he wouldn't have been so very present in his life; teaching him all the things that he did. Therefore, his particular brand of smarts may've caused him to be a typical, awkward nerd. Then again, he seems such a people person, whereas Dean isn't so much. Hm. See, this is why I should think things through before typing or talking. I type as I think; sorry).

Or maybe, especially in light of Sammy's guilt and desperation to do the right thing and save his brother and the world, Dean would have some bright, well-adjusted life and he'd be like Batman; some dark avenger, working in the dark places, trying to help people. Working to help poor, abused people; working in prisons, working in nut houses, etc.

OK, that was a lot of disjointed ramble and I apologize. I'll think more on this.

Also, why does Dean get all the alternate reality-type stuff? I hope we get to see Sammy have an alternate reality and/or time travel. That'd be nice if he gets to go with Dean in season 5 to the future. Honestly, I think Sammy's inner workings needs more attention this season. The show has been sorely lacking in that department. Sammy needs a little more attention. (And more angel bonding.) I'm hoping the writers make a lovely balance with all 3 this season, peppered with a healthy dose of Bobby (although I'm really apprehensive of how they're going to handle Bobby; I'm scared they're going to do something hurtful!)

[Phoenix_Rising]

I wanna see another Mini Dean and Mini Sam Flashback Episode! maybe with Daddy Winchester!

Anyway...

I think I can imagine that Sam's dream relity would be, I don't know I myself have a few theories.

Going back to the beginning, I think one of the possible's would have been Sam at stanford, Jess didn't die and he went there with the blessing of Dean & John, I have read so many fics like that, So I'm not alone in wihsing that maybe happened!

Also Maybe another of Sam's would have been, If mary did die, but not the way she did, he could have had, they could have all had a normal life, but then John probably would have been...I really hate to imagine John as the type of father Max Miller's dad was...

Everything would have had the downside, If Sam, Dean, John & Mary had lived a happy normal life, like Dean discovered in What is and What should never be.

All the people they saved, would have died, The world probably would have ended by now, There would probably be no warrior for the coming battle in Season 5.

The list of Downfalls goes On & On

But an even bigger question to ask is despite the downfalls, Would Sam have been strong enough to Leave the Alternate reality like Dean did?

[ExtraCookie]

I really think he would be strong enough to also dig himself out, yes.

If the Djin had attacked him in season one or maybe even season 2, the Stanford stuff would make sense. But, seeing as how he's changed since then--by his own admission--I honestly don't think that's what he pines for anymore.

I guess his key longings are Dean safe & happy with a long, fruitful life ahead of him (Dean's well-being was the final thing that pushed him into giving in to his powers) and for him to be doing good things left and right as penance.

You're so right; just like with Dean's wish reality, there'd be all those downfalls. In fact, this makes me think Sammy would probably have an easier time digging himself out. He told Dean that their sacrifices and pain were worth it. I loved him SO much at that moment. He didn't even hesitate or waver and said it with so much conviction. That was a beautiful, heroic Sammy moment. Ya know, he may not question the hero role quite as much as Dean, since it's practically all he's ever known. Dean had 4 years of normal; Sammy had 6 months.

[smileyone]

I wanna see another Mini Dean and Mini Sam Flashback

Ditto!!! Those young lads who played the young Sam/Dean characters were all great, imo... particularly the young Sam, now he's a cracking good young actor... ok, maybe as he, in RL is just growing in real time, so therefore you may not be able to keep using the same lad for each flashback... surely there could be something or some early flashback Sam related... ideally bringing back Daddy Winchester... seriously, I really miss him in the show... he was only there for a few eps in total, sporadically over the whole first couple of seasons... but there is still time to make it right... get him back there... maybe even somehow rising Mom Mary up as well.... Well one can wish...

It would have been so good to see an ep with the two young Winchesters, newly married... bringing back again Amy Gumenick & Matt Cohen...[they really worked as a pair...imo]... Mary deep in hunting demons etc... John's introduction or slide into that world... as I found it quite an interesting twist that she was the more dominant one at that whole area at the very beginning... then maybe span forward to a time when the kids were about... Ok.. it would have to be within Sam's first 6 months... but Dean was a youngster....

One thing that truly fascinates me about those first four years, five if you count Mary's pregnancy with Dean.... how the hell did they manage childcare when she was off killing vampires and demons and such like? just wondering.... I found it hard to sort out getting outside the front door when my Mini Me was 3-4.... and even then, I needed a truck to carry out all the bits and pieces they carry about with them... the nappy and spare clothes supplies... the packed up food, the extra drinks... the pushchair.... the teddy... the blanket.... etc.... you times that by two and you have the early life of the Winchester family!!! Even now, it takes an age to get him out of the house in the mornings... so how did they manage the whole routine? What corner of the childcare world did they prefect to balance all that up so good???

Seriously, I am so intrigued as to how they managed to do it all so well!!! Was Bobby an even more important force back then? Did John take on the whole hunting role with Mary simply taking a back seat... just because they wanted to start a family and the boys came along.... Would John have even got into the world of hunting if the boys hadn't been born??? All interesting stuff... in my head anyway....

Maybe John went out first thing in the morning with Bobby, to work killing all the baddie demons, leaving the good woman at home with the kids! I wonder just how much hunting Mary did once John settled into that life....

Anyway back to original topic.... I agree with Cookie.... Sam's alternate life would be very much parallel with that of Deans... He may have wished for both parents to still be around though... It's a harder question to ponder on then some because of the two brothers, he did have the slightly more 'normal' upbringing anyway... he led a more sheltered protected life then Dean who had great responsibility thrust on him from a really young age, mainly due to the fact he were the older sibling...

Maybe one could start with the alternate... what if Sam, and his general personality etc... was actually the older brother with Dean, and all that comes with him were the younger one.... would their personalities, and general views about life etc... as different as they are still be the same as today? Did one of them take more after one of the parents then the other? I dunno.... This is one now I am going to be pondering on all day.....

OMG.... We have done a handful of posts in a row now about the show plus an actual thread title that so far has not had the name of 'He Who Should Not Be Named' in them.... OMG.... We are going to all get smited by the hoards of minions for setting up a splinter group of free thinkers....

[Calena]

First, very good question. I notice you are in the habit of opening very intersting threads, Phoenix_Rising. Please don't hate me, but did we actually meet at Asylum and it slipped my mind?

Second, I am a sucker for flashbacks in general, in every show, in every genre. Thus the huge appeal the first 2 seasons of Lost held for me. I love vampire flashbacks in Buffy/Angel, True Blood, Blood Ties, etc.
I love little!Sam and little!Dean. How Awwwww was the flashback in A Very Supernatural Christmas? *melts*

One thing that truly fascinates me about those first four years, five if you count Mary's pregnancy with Dean.... how the hell did they manage childcare when she was off killing vampires and demons and such like? just wondering.... I found it hard to sort out getting outside the front door
when my Mini Me was 3-4....

Tell me about it! I have a very good friend. We never met up very often, but we at least managed to meet twice a year, once for my birthday in January and once for hers in August. Last year she became a mother, and I am happy for her, because that's what she wanted. But to this date she couldn't manage to meet up with me for my birthday because she's so busy with the kid. I wonder whether we'll manage to meet up for hers this August, or if we'll just postpone further meetings until the boy has finished high school and is off to college!
I'm not even that sad or bitter about it, because while now you all surley will throw rocks and sticks at me, I find little pleasure in meeting up with friends whom I formerly used to have interesting conversations with, when the have their little kids with them. Becuase frankly, you can't say 3 coherent sentences without having to stop because either the kid wants something or the mother has to intervene with the kid eating a bug or whatever. Plus I feel weird talking about my life and interest to the moms, because they aren't SPN fans, they don't have time to read, watch TV, follow politics, so I feel a bit stupid talking to them about these things, even when they claim to want to be distracted of their domestic lives.
Of course kids are the most important thing, and that's just the way it is, I don't hold grudges. However I am baffled that the mothers themselves seem to be surprised that it is that way. Many of them have told me they imagined it to be a lot easier. I don't have kids, but I have no illusions as to what sacrifices would have to be made and how exhausting it would be.

Ok, that was totally OT and not at all the point I wanted to make about Mary. Sorry.
The point is (yippey! I came to the point! ) that Mary didn't hunt. (john didn't know she was huntress. If he had, he'd surely had not only told the boys, but have been prepared for the arrival of YED) I think she quit hunting after making the deal, certainly after she was married. And that would be an altogether different and interesting discussion. Mary giving hunting, what does that make her? Irresponsible for abandoning the mission of saving people, hunting things? And it's an interesting connection to Sam, because he did the same, and probably would never have returned if Dean hadn't dragged him out and Jessica hadn't die. However Sam is John in a lot of things, but here he was more like his mother.

And now - gasp - I come to the actual topic at hand! Ta-ta!
On one hand I'm inclined to agree with the Sam wants to go to Stanford, marry Jess, have the white picket fence theory.
On the other hand this question begs to be explored a bit further.
When we talk about the time the ep in question is in the timeline, Sam's biggest wish was Dean not going to hell. Which would have been accomplished with the reality, or one similar to it, that Dean dreamed up for himself. I agree with Cookie, that in Sam's reality Dean wouldn't have been a loser, but maybe some famous rock guitarist or something, because Sam hero-worships Dean and understandably so.

A year later, in S4, it was in Sam's own words "Lillith' head on a plate. Bloody" Which is what I believe Cookie referred to.

Originally Posted by ExtraCookie

ammy said that he's not "that (lawyer, normal-life havin') guy" anymore (I may've paraphrased there

And btw this is one of the many things that turned me into a Sam girl over the course of S4. Not Luke anymore, but Anakin.
Probably at this time Sam's alternate reality would have been him having killed Lillith and actually having saved the world in doing so.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Rising

But an even bigger question to ask is despite the downfalls, Would Sam have been strong enough to Leave the Alternate reality like Dean did?

Absolutely.

smiley, you made a few additional interesting points in your post, which I will adress later.

[smileyone]

I'm not even that sad or bitter about it, because while now you all surley will throw rocks and sticks at me, I find little pleasure in meeting up with friends whom I formerly used to have interesting conversations with, when the have their little kids with them. Becuase frankly, you can't say 3 coherent sentences without having to stop because either the kid wants something or the mother has to intervene with the kid eating a bug or whatever. Plus I feel weird talking about my life and interest to the moms, because they aren't SPN fans, they don't have time to read, watch TV, follow politics, so I feel a bit stupid talking to them about these things, even when they claim to want to be distracted of their domestic lives.

Thing is though... is that in order for you to still appreciate you have a role in life that is more then just being a mother to what essentially an alien being you created inside your very body, a thing that had completely owned your body for up to 40 weeks, who made all off your body change in appearance and stay different forever ... you have to have some life of your own... I only started to work that one out when I was left alone by myself with a young 17 month old kid... Til then, I led a life where I was consumed with just motherhood and internal family life... I had forgotten my friends for a while and wrongly believed they had forgotten all about me.... It was only when I stood up to things and wanted my friends and some remnants of my life pre child back that I was left by myself to claim it all back...

For many young mothers, and some dads, life is like that... such transitions are hard to adjust to... a fine balance to work out between all areas of life so all is treated equally... Which, going back on topic... is why I don't think Mary Winchester just simply gave up all thoughts of hunting once she had those kids.... ok, she appeared to be half asleep and totally unprepared for the YED's appearance, on the night she died, which confuses me a little.... that look on her face at that point has thrown a spanner in the works for me and in some way quashes my theory that she was still thinking in hunting mode....

Maybe you are right though, Calena.... maybe she was your typical young new mum... who's life was at a standstill when around her two young babies.... maybe she had purposely closed off her past life to devote her time totally to bringing up her young children and adjusting to new married life and family.... she wouldn't be the first to do so... I went down a similar road, so in theory I can see why she would have done this here.... Maybe that is the reason why John actually took up hunting in the first place... maybe not by choice at all.... maybe more out of duty to his young bride who was taking a step back from it all thus leaving a void that needed filling in order to make him a dad....

Becuase frankly, you can't say 3 coherent sentences without having to stop because either the kid wants something or the mother has to intervene with the kid eating a bug or whatever

I thought you said you never met Mini Me .... Oh he does love his bugs even now.... he'll eat anything when he is hungry!!! One time when he was a toddler... I had friends over and we were in the back garden chatting as he and my friends children all played together ... he picked up an apple off the ground and bit into it, happily chewing away on half a worm in the process... my friend took it off him, threw it to the side of the garden, had a laugh and carried on... never once thinking he would have gone hunting for the same apple to have rest of worm... we found him just in time, drooling over it as he was about to bite into it...... he threw such a wobbly when we took the thing off him for a second time.... He used to shove rubbers and peas up his nose and in his ears too.... those were fun days.... ROFL.... Wonder did a young Dean Winchester, as a toddler ever eat any worms or do the whole pea thing up the nose thing ever??? Now that's a story I would love to see more of .... a 'Toddler Dean!!!' ....

Of course kids are the most important thing, and that's just the way it is, I don't hold grudges. However I am baffled that the mothers themselves seem to be surprised that it is that way. Many of them have told me they imagined it to be a lot easier. I don't have kids, but I have no illusions as to what sacrifices would have to be made and how exhausting it would be.

For most though, and this is totally speaking from experience... if the balance is not right from the very beginning, then the whole bringing up the child thing won't run like clockwork as hoped.... If mum and Dad are both not singing off same hymn sheet as it were, then the balance is not even... Many make the mistake to believe that life as one knows it firmly stops when you have a kid... ok, your life is dramatically different or more busy then before but it should not be much different if you handle it all right.... For the record, though.... I was lucky... horrendous full term pregnancy, causing me to nearly lose Mini Me a total of 5 times in those 10 months... at 20 weeks, I genuinely thought he was gone, as did the hospital as they couldn't pick up his heartbeat inside me for a considerable amount of minutes... he stuck in there though... once born though... he was a gem... he slept all night from first night... drank and ate food without any setbacks... even his poo seemed to come out boxed with a red ribbon attached to them... He was also born with two teeth already down through his gums, which was particularly a joy for me seeing that he was feeding off me ten times a day!!!
I didn't have the sleepless nights making worn paths across the floor trying to get a colicky baby back to sleep... nope, I had an easy ride compared to most... but then again, I felt like a natural mum... I enjoyed it and took to it quite well... I gave my time solely for the kid... which happened to turn out for the best in the end for me...

Individual parents all make their own stab at parenting the best way they can... no one gives them a book on how to bring up their child, or at least a book that actually makes any sense to them once baby arrives.... they work from total inexperience... even now, ten years on, yes... my little baby will be TEN next week... double figures folks... I feel really old all of a sudden... anyway, 10 years on, if I were to have another one... as funny as it might be for me now, I guess I would still make a fair good job as a mum... it's like riding a bike.... [For those of us who can ride a bike!!!!! ] ...... never forget the basics!!!

Totally selfishly here.... but as Mary Winchester wasn't around in those early years... I would have really loved to see how Daddy Winchester tackled into those early years with the boys.... being sole parent to the boys, how he managed to combine the two, his role of fathering the boys with good values etc.. and his role as a relatively new hunter on the scene too... as at that stage he would have known little about what took Mary's life and would have been consumed with both grief and revenge... how did all that fit in with his raising of the boys??? So interesting a line of thought... but will most likely never be covered....

[Calena]

Another thought, while thinking about alternate realities (and what else can we do, without new eps to discuss and the precious few Comic Con spoiler already chewed to death for intensive scrutinising):
What if Mary had heeded Dean's warning of not getting up the night YED paid a visit? (Yes I know, Dean wasn't really in the past, so Mary didn't really get the warning. But we are talking about alternate realities, so! I also have heard the argument that even if Dean had really been back in time, why should Mary trust or even remember an obscure's strangers warning? To that I say because she was a huntress and should have known well enough to do so! I think a Mary thread is in order, to discuss her decision not to tell John she was a huntress and all the implications and consequences of that)

Sam would still have been infected with the demon blood, but Sam and Dean wouldn't have grown up hunters. Sam might have been killed first in AHBL. Or he might have won and done YED's deeds - leading the demon army, freeing Lucifer. Well, Lucifer is free anyway, so would it have made any difference at all? Yes, of course, we wouldn't have brothers Winchester to fight the good fight! So was it in fact wise of Mary to ignore Dean's warning? Was it good that Dean wasn't really back in time to warn her?

Discuss, while I turn on my ventilator, spread out on the couch and wait for this insane heat to be over. I hear Iceland wants to join the EU, yay, I might move there once they are in!

[Phoenix_Rising]

Originally Posted by Calena

First, very good question. I notice you are in the habit of opening very intersting threads, Phoenix_Rising. Please don't hate me, but did we actually meet at Asylum and it slipped my mind?

First of all thank you for the compliement.

And second of all, I don't think we did...Unless you were talking to someone in the day who was wearing a black T-shirt with Sam, Dean and a pair of eyes and a supernatural quote. On it, That I brought from the Shop, place. I spent so much money in there! lol.