Winchester Girls

[Phoenix_Rising]

Here's a question that's been buzzing around in my head for a while, and I figured I'd post it here. Do you think Supernatural would have been as popular and Successful, If it had been about the Winchester Sisters and not the Winchester Brothers?

[ExtraCookie]

Most likely, no. But it depends. If they'd focused mostly on just too smokin' hot girls and lots of gore & sex rather than a deep, epic plot, lots of complex secondary characters, etc., yeah, it might've been very popular with the male audience. If they'd have tried to do it differently than that, probably would've bombed.

I don't think Eric would've managed to make a female version of the Winchesters comparable to the male. I think TV shows/movies in general pretty much fail miserably at making female characters of this ilk. I guess, for one, there probably aren't enough female writers and what female writers there are out there tend to focus mostly on romance/romantic comedy/sex type stuff. When female heroes are put out there, they're usually even more unrealistic than male heroes and are totally, ridiculously sexed up. The female Winchesters would've most likely gone around dressed in tight leather and lacy camis and heels. Would've both had huge boobs and long, perfectly-groomed-at-all-times hair (at least one of 'em would be a platinum blonde) and worn tons of makeup (that never gets messed up) at all times. They would've been unrealistically good fighters, doing all sorts of Crouching-Tigeresque "martial arts" moves, etc. Think Buffy (OK, I didn't watch but maybe one or two partial eps. of that show, but I saw her doing that kind of fighting, that's all I know. I never understood people comparing Supernatural to Buffy, either! Other than the fighting supernatural things, they're nothing alike, if you ask me!). To have a female version of Supernatural even be somewhat plausible, they'd need to fight less physical battles (or, at the least, be freakishly awesome with weapons) because it's unrealistic enough as it is that our Winchester guys survive the scrapes they get into (I'm no medical expert, but as many times as they've both been knocked out and Dean's been smashed in the head and Sammy's been choked, they should both have some brain damage by now, don't ya think?!). I don't care how buff, strong and full of fight smarts a woman is, she just can't physically kick ass the way a man can, over and over again and in so many ways. And certainly can't take a beating the way a guy can. It's ridiculous.

To get the Winchester sisters right, either a cool, different kind of hollywood writer woman would've been needed or at least some woman with good insight of that type would've been needed to advise Eric. Nothing against Eric; he's great, of course, but men in general just don't know how to write for women in that way.

Have you seen footage of Misha pretty much addressing this subject at the con.? Oh, wait, I guess most of you here saw him talking about it in person! But, damn you, your Mishadazzlement Disorder (is there treatment for that yet? Are you on it?) prevented you from being able to tell ME about it, so I had to randomly find it on YouTube! (And it was awesome as hell!) Hey, maybe Misha could've helped on that project! (Or his wife! She seems cool that way, from what little I know of her!)

So, there ya go. Apparently, I never have a short answer for anything!

[Phoenix_Rising]

Misha addressed this? Are you talking about the Asylum Con? Cause I was in line for my Jensen photo op (Jensen's so much prettier in real life!), so I missed pretty much all of Misha's talk and I missed Jared coming on stage! (Jared and Misha are both better looking in real life too. Just had to add that!)

But, You brought up some great points, I think you pretty much said exactly what I was thinking, If the show was about 2 sisters, it probably would not be as good and lets face it, Jared & Jensen may be pretty but my god can they both act brilliantly!

To carry a show like Supernatural would take great acting skill, I'm not saying that there isn't great actresses out there because there are. But I think the fact is Jared & Jensen make the show, they make the Characters of Dean & Sam come alive, they make us Cry when one of them is in pain. Hell I've never shouted at the Tv about two brothers fighting until Supernatural They make us show caring and compassion towards two fictional characters and for me, Jared & Jensen will always be the ones who made Sam & Dean real.

Wow, Looks like I can't just write a short reply either.

[DramaDiva]

^^ gotta disagree with you both. The Winchesters could have worked as sisters IMHO . It would have just taken a special kind of writer to make it work. Kripke might have that in him. To make a female character strong ,independent and still feminine (but not overtly so) is a hard thing to do. Finding that balance and making an audience believe it takes some time.

I have to reference Buffy here (since I have actually watched the entire show not just a few episodes.) I think if you are going to refrence similarities and compare and contrast, you should at least know both subjects you are working with. Buffy and Supernatural have a lot of parallels. Buffy did not just fight vampires. She came up against a lot in her seven year run. She would have been a really good female version of a Winchester. She did not run around half naked with giant boobs(her boobs actually shrank as the seasons went on which i found highly amusing). Supernatural was about family , Buffy at it's core was about family and relationships. There is another similarity.Buffy was about one girl coming to terms with her power , that she alone has ...Supernatural is about 2 brothers one of them since season one is trying to come to grips with his power, ah there is yet another similarity.

I also do not believe that it would take a female writer to write the female Winchesters. Joss Whedon writes female characters brilliantly ...he is not a female. Buffy,Willow,Faith and Joyce are all excellent female characters , all written by a man . So I also disagree that men do not know how to write women in a positive ,strong and independent light.

[ExtraCookie]

Yep, Phoenix, I think it was Asylum. I can't swear to it, though. (Ask almost anyone else here! Seems they were all there! Then again, they seem to have memory lapses where Misha is concerned!) He was talking about how male-oriented Hollywood scripts were in general. And I couldn't agree more with what he said. And, don't worry--when replying to my posts, anyway, long answers are welcome!

Hi, Drama! I wasn't comparing the overall show Buffy with Supernatural; I was comparing Buffy's fighting style to Supernatural's. So, I was only referencing the stuff I saw. Didn't she fight with martial arts-type moves? Or at least other hand-to-hand combat stuff? (Or am I thinking of the movie? That I saw; a long time ago.) And you said she had powers? Sam's only had powers he could use in fighting very recently; and that only on demons (& we all know the guys fight much more than demons). He's never had powers he could use on anything else; just human powers. Don't you agree that a human (non-power having) woman going head-to-head against the things that Dean & Sam do is even more unrealistic than the guys doing it? Sarah M.G. is a petite or average-sized woman at biggest, right? It's just too hard (for me) to buy. That's all I meant.

And I didn't mean that there were no plot/story similarities between the two shows (I wouldn't know about that) I just meant the overall feel/look/texture/tone, etc. of the two shows seemed very different to me (from what little I saw). It reminded me more of Charmed (which was actually not a bad show overall, really; just doesn't compare to Supernatural). It just didn't interest me at all. Whereas, after the very first ep. of Supernatural, I was hooked (and I didn't think I'd even like it at all! I had the same idea about it as Misha initially had, so I ignored it. If it weren't for me cancelling my satellite and being really bored on the night the S1 reruns started, I woudn't have discovered it!). It instantly seemed grittier, more realistic (within the paramaters of such a show, obviously), darker and just cooler. I'm not trashing Buffy! I didn't watch it enough. I'm just saying what my impressions were of the little I saw of it.

Yep, that's basically what I said; if fem Supernatural had a special kind of writer, it could've worked. I just think the chances of it having had that kind of writer would've been slim. Eric may've been able to handle it, yes. But, judging by the failure of almost all Supernatural females to win people over, I have to doubt it. If this Joss person is a good writer for female characters of this ilk (I didn't say men can't write them strong, independent, etc. I was talking about bad-ass, hunter/hero chicks in particular), he's one of the exceptions. I still say that, in general, guys are not good at it. Didn't Joss do Dollhouse? I tried watching that and . . . bleh. NO. Do you have any other examples of his hero chick work besides either of those two shows?

I'm trying to think of any other women on TV/movies that compare really well to the Winchesters, and I'm drawing a blank. Anyone? If I think of any, I'll post 'em. (Tough, but decently realistically so; not dressed in overly-sexy/nice clothes; hair/makeup gets messed up on occasion/get rough-looking; not over-the-top bad-ass; flawed, etc.)

[DramaDiva]

I didn't think you were trashing Buffy at all . I just wanted to give an opinion on the subject myself ,having seen both of the shows. If I seemed a little harsh and matter of fact it was not intentional . That's just the way I usually come off.

The only 'power' Buffy really had was healing fast and super charged fighting abilities. She also had dreams now and then which would come true. The fighting thing wasn't like 'oh,she is just this normal girl but can kick butt like an amazon' it kinda came with the slayer gig.No matter how big or small she could have been or was she would have had the same ability. Sam has had power since season one. He had the visions. He had to come to terms with that . He had the whole 'special child' thing , which he also had to come to terms with...kinda like Buffy . That is all I was trying to say. Sam and Buffy have a lot in common as far as feeling like an outsider and having to come to grips with a power no one else can understand.


I don't think it is more unrealistic. If the girls were trained like Sam and Dean were , since childhood, I find it perfectly plausible. It's all about the training, plus I am a firm believer that anything a guy can do a girl can do better.....why else would we get to have the babies..lol. Girls are smaller by nature so wouldn't be safe to say that a girl would be more stealthy , since we can after all fit in smaller spaces . We might be weaker physically( I dunno though because I have seen some pretty buff chicks) but I think we would make up for that mentally . Girls tend to think things through more than men do. So really all the men have on there side is the brute....we win LMAO.


Umm...Joss did a show called Firefly. There were some pretty strong female characters on that show as well. Zoe and Inara were pretty strong female characters. He did Angel (If you didn't watch Buffy I doubt you watched Angel.) Cordiela turned out to be a pretty strong female on that show as well as Fred/Illyra. He writes women like a champ. I am fairly convinced that he was a female in a past life or something.

[smileyone]

How many walls could you see a Winchester sister being thrown up against??? LOL!!!.... I mean didn't Buffy have some sort of powers.... A Winchester Sis would be just human.... And what about that time of the month.... when one or both of the sisters get a PMS 'power surge' of emotions and thoughts about killing without also getting that usual hankering for a day off to just eat chocolate etc........

I agree it could have worked with a sister partnership.... but I'm not sure if they would like to have kept driving the Impala round.... that is quite hard on steering, I would imagine.... The girls wouldn't have so much flannel either, I suppose.... maybe a bit more lippy.... a few extra pairs of heels.... maybe even a more feminine ringtone then that of Deans.... what one does Sam have on his phone, btw.... I don't think I have ever heard it ring.... They might even have a few pink coloured throws in the back seat of the car.... and a nice fresh smelling pot pourri bag of something hanging down from the mirror in the car.... no hex bags for these girlies....

I suppose yes.... they could have been Winchester sisters instead of brothers... regardless of who they are..... however.... I'm sure they would have come with way more stuff then the boys ... maybe even having to hitch up a small trailer to the back of the car to carry clothes and stuff.... The man or woman who could write that story would have to be even more genius then Kripke and his whole team put together.... LOL!!!....

Umm...Joss did a show called Firefly. There were some pretty strong female characters on that show as well. Zoe and Inara were pretty strong female characters. He did Angel (If you didn't watch Buffy I doubt you watched Angel.) Cordiela turned out to be a pretty strong female on that show as well as Fred/Illyra. He writes women like a champ. I am fairly convinced that he was a female in a past life or something.

LOL.... I joke though.... I also watched Firefly.... those female characters bored me a bit at the end.... they were much the same... nothing stood out for me with them.... which surprised me alot cause I thought it was a show that I would have really got but somehow never really connected with. I agree they were strong and sassy females in that show.... but I dunno.... maybe they were strong cause the male characters were that much weaker.... I didn't gel with or take to the male roles either really.... take the actual lead male Captain role.... a whole season later and honestly, I can't now recall his name.... there were good moments in that show with either male or female characters but as a show, it honestly bored me towards the end.... although.... it totally entralled others like Calena etc...

With the likes of Buffy.... she too was sassy ... she had an interesting story to her.... she kicked ass!!! But she was indeed aimed at a younger audience IMO.... I just couldn't keep up with life in her college dorm or whatever either.... but I liked it when she was demon busting or whatever....

Another female laden down show that comes to mind now is that show 'Charmed' those witches with the powers.... they were sisters, I'm sure.... I watched that one from time to time, but not every week.... They tried to make Lana out of Smallville go all possessed and look like a Long Lost Charmed Sister all the way back in S4... back in the days of Jensen and his Jason Teague character... but it too failed miserably!!! Bela Talbot, too in SPN was a sassy lass who could kick ass and mind herself well.... but people also tired of her overall character and things she was doing.... even when there was no love interest with her and the boys.... I dunno, as much as I would like to see more female laden down character shows or more so a female version of SPN Winchester brothers..... I don't know if truly the world wouldn't tire of them more quicker then they would main male leads....

And another thing.... take the current or indeed past lot of females in SPN...

Ruby is a demon, so she doesn't count here.... but how about Ellen and Jo Harvelle? Ellen did have a bit of bite to her... she was old and wise enough to control the boys.... you could see that she knew a thing or two about demon busting....

Jo character, however, I never really took too either.... I couldn't see her having the strength to kill off demons etc... or for that matter, having the know how.... even though she had spent a lifetime growing up with it in her family, surrounded by it... just like the boys.... maybe it was more down to the actress then the character.... but part of me thought that Jo character was just a little too young for the show to be a serious threat to anyone... and maybe in my mind, I already had formed that opinion.... no matter what she did from there on in.....

We've already mentioned Bela.... now she had a little worldly wisdom about her.... she could handle herself more.... but what stopped her character from going any further is she really didn't have an Ellen type character to bounce off.... she had no back up.... she was too much on her own.... she, the actress should have been Jo character, IMO.... she would have had more to play off, maybe she would have had more to do for longer.... she would have had some mighty showdowns with Ellen too..... as characters were strong and very similar where Jo's wasn't as much.... IMO.... although I suspect many of you may disagree with that one!!!

And take Mary Winchester character.... Sam Smith's version.... I dunno if I could see Sam Smith play a longterm credible demon busting badass female version of John Winchester for any length of time either, in all honesty.... she was great mother material.... great for those long serious talks with the boys.... but I dunno, if as a mum, she would have clashed with her daughters had the roles been reversed and Daddy had died with boys never being born but two daughters had instead..... I certainly don't think they would have well worked as a team....

Even if it was Daddy John instead who was raising his girls alone.... maybe the fact there was an absense of a long term mother figure would have hardened them....well it did mess the boys up enough, so what would it do to daughters, who needed to rely on a mother figure to teach them girlie stuff....? ....but surely they too would have rebelled longer and harder against Daddy then the boys would ever have.... He may have been a little bit more protective of them, naturally... as they were girls.... may have been around a bit more then how he lived life with the boys.... maybe even leaving them for longer periods in schools as kids so he could have done more without their involvement.... would he then have shared as much with them about all things scary like he did his boys??? Would Daddy Winchester have ever felt compelled to remarry etc.... to find a stable upbringing for his daughters, who needed a mother figure in their lives more then the boys would ever have had???
As much as we would love to think he would have had an easy a time with two daughters as he had with his boys.... I am honestly not so sure..... But the ride would have been an extremely interesting one.....

Guess I really can't do a short post either.....

[Calena]

I should really really be doing other things, but you guys have to have interesting discussion just to make me not doing chores!

I don't think Master Kripke could have pulled off Winchester Sisters. Joss Whedon could have. There have been 2 strong female characters in SPN: Mary (although we learned about her strength only recently) and Ellen. They are well written, but not the center of the show. Until Master Kripke prooves it, I just have my doubts that he can pull off a show with a female heroine. I really think Joss Whedon is the great exception and one of a kind when it comes to writing strong, realistic, female characters.

About Buffy: A ton of people let themselves being put off by the blonde cheerleader pretense and it's their loss. In reality Buffy is a well written, dark, intense show much like SPN. There is nothing superficial in Buffy. Unlike SPN it does have romance and relationships, but these are in no way soapy and Joss is not one to give his couples happy endings.
Buffy and Sam would be great friends, because they both have the "chosen one" dilemma when all they ever wanted was to be normal and fit it (like Drama said). And I think Dean would make a good boyfriend, at least for a while (I still think there should be a way for her and Angel to be together), for Buffy. Dean would be a match for Buffy's sarcasm and he can hold his own in a fight, which is very important for anyone who hopes to be Buffy's boyfriend.

And - hint- Master Kripke hasn't invented killing his leads off and bringing them back (more than once)

Personally I am very happy it's about the Winchester Brothers. I am being honest here: I love drooling over J2. I wouldn't watch the show if it were just about the eyecandy, but the Js looking like they do certainly doesn't hurt. If it was that well written and well acted I would certainly watch SPN with female lead characters, though (I watched Buffy and am a fan of it, after all)

All you Buffy sceptics should give it a try, btw. The humour in Buffy alone is worth watching it. Anyone who likes the Dean oneliners will also like Buffy's.
And I have read somewhere that Master Kripke himself is a Buffy fan.

As for other JW shows: Firefly absolutely rules and I agree with Drama that it had strong female characters.
I have to say I am not that sure about Dollhouse yet.

LOL.... I joke though.... I also watched Firefly.... those female characters bored me a bit at the end.... they were much the same... nothing stood out for me with them.... which surprised me alot cause I thought it was a show that I would have really got but somehow never really connected with. I agree they were strong and sassy females in that show.... but I dunno.... maybe they were strong cause the male characters were that much weaker.... I didn't gel with or take to the male roles either really.... take the actual lead male Captain role.... a whole season later and honestly, I can't now recall his name.... there were good moments in that show with either male or female characters but as a show, it honestly bored me towards the end.... although.... it totally entralled others like Calena etc...

Indeed. I think your lack of gelling with Mal, the captain of the Serenity, is because you aren't a SW fan. Because Mal is a cooler version of the coolest character in SW, Han Solo. I never thought I'd see a cooler spaceship captain than Han Solo, but Joss Whedon pulled it off, and if I hadn't been an avid Joss fan because of Buffy anyway I'd have become one as soon as I finished watching the pilot of Firefly. The male characters in Firefly were NOT weak!
And again, the humour and snarky oneliners in what was a pretty dark show - awesome!

This is not a short post. Are we on some "post short posts"-challenge, because everyone feels the need to add a disclaimer about the length of their posts?

I have never watched Charmed. Should I? I have doubts, I think it's probably too teenage-y for me, but then many people seem to think exactly that about Buffy.

[smileyone]

coolest character in SW, Han Solo.

Truly..... the only good thing about the whole SW experience for me....

Short post.....I know it's a first for me.... BUT I WIN!!! ROFL......

[Calena]

Originally Posted by smileyone

Truly..... the only good thing about the whole SW experience for me....

So what didn't you like about Mal Reynolds, then?

My post is even shorter!