Angels&Demons in Supernatural

[ExtraCookie]

Excellent post, candy! I agree with it at least 99%! You're so right, it is about perspective. More than that, it's not only about perspective of humans as a whole and angels as a whole, but, especially with the angels of Supernatural, it's about perspective of the individual. The spiritual texts believers follow (at least the Bible) does give us the idea (unless I'm remembering incorrectly; I'm rusty, feel free to correct me!) that there is an extremely vast amount of angels (but, in Supernatural anyway, their numbers "are not unlimited") and that, indeed, very few of them have ever come down here. At least if you take into account all the Bible stories, anyway (again, unless I'm remembering incorrectly). If I remember correctly, it never really gave any indication that any more angels came down to do stuff than the ones they told us about. So, it would seem, that a startlingly small percentage of them ever do actually do anything more than hang around in heaven, praising God. A tiny few have come here to run errands (some grander than others, but all pretty short trips, as best I recall) and that's about it. As far as we know, it seems like Cas and Anna are/have been in a pretty unique situation.

So, it makes sense to me that the majority of angels are cool with their lives. They all fit in. They all live in a beautiful, comfy realm with basically two, clear-cut occupations (praise God, be prepared to do His errands should they be called upon . . . which rarely happens). They don't get sick or old or infirm, etc. They don't deal with hardships. They don't have to face tough choices, etc. Compare that to the average human's life (hell, even an especially happy, well human's life!) and it certainly seems much better to me! It makes sense that, with so little offered to them to have to chose from, they're probably even more sheep-like than people.

But they do have their own personalities. They can think for themselves. They can feel. They can learn. (Again, why God would bother to make them this way is beyond me. Calena's take on it makes sense to me!) So it makes sense that there would be angel misfits, just as there are human ones. Ones who do have more of a tendency for thinking for themselves. For wanting to see what's beyond the boundaries. Having extraordinary curiosity and desire for knowledge (among possibly other things). For these misfits (Anna is surely one of those, if this is the case; Cas probably is too), it sounds like their lot could certainly be seen as just as bad, if not worse, as a human's. I guess it's pretty much a walk-a-mile-in-each-other's-shoes situation.

Cas is obviously very curious. It was obvious from the night we met him. He was never dismissive of people. Never wanting to just do his job without drinking in the experience and learn as he went along. I don't know if it was his intention to connect with humans; seems it may be something he just ended up being gradually drawn to do (thanks to Dean. Dean clearly surprised Cas when they met. He obviously expected him to be down with the program, to be awed and pleased by his presence and thankful for his rescue, etc. Instead, he was . . . Dean! How perplexing!), but that's what he's ended up doing. We haven't met enough angels yet, though, for me to figure out if he's a pretty typical one or not. (We've "met" three others--one somewhat like him, two not like him at all.) Naturally, I like to think he isn't, but we'll see. I certainly think his lot, at the moment, is at least as bad, if not worse, than your average human's right now!

Spoiler: It looks even more likely, by the way, that we're going to get the fight I want! Did you read the spoiler article I posted?! BAD-ASS CAS FIGHT!! I hope!

[candyrose]

Hey there, Cookie.

You're correct: We haven't seen very many angels on SPN, so it could be assumed that the majority don't do very much at all. What got me thinking, however, is something Cas said to Dean. Ah, right now I can't remember his exact words. Dean has frequently made inquiries with regards to where the heck Cas has been and what he has been up to. In his mind, it seemed that Cas was, at times, gone when Dean really needed him to be there and needed some answers. Cas has implied that he, along with other angels, do much more than Dean and others are probably aware of. With what's been going on in the SPN universe, it would appear there is a lot of work to do. There are probably other "special" people that the angels visit and are trying to prepar them for something big. We know Sam and Dean aren't the only ones because there is also Chuck. There are probably others who have been given smaller tasks to complete, smaller in comparison to the ones Dean has been given. There's no telling how many people have been chosen and visited by an angel or two, but we can assume that as large as the earth is and as many demons as there are, there are quite a few of them. Then there are other duties, like angels needed to get inside information and figure out what the other side has been up to and what plans they have. It can't be an easy task; these angels probably have to put themselves in harm's way to get such information. They probably, I would assume, would have to catch a few demons and interrogate them. I really don't think the information is just send to them, by special delivery, from God himself. They probably have to do some digging, hunting, and investigating of their own. A job like this would probably require a good number of angels because there is a lot of ground to cover, and I wouldn't think they'd always be working alone in this kinf of circumstance (at least in the SPN universe, I mean). On top of all that, there are probably angels that sort of police over the other angels (we've sort of seen this in SPN just a tad bit). And what about what happened to Cas? Surely if he was tortured, he was tortured by other angels. We can assume from this that some angels are given the task of torturing or cleansing other angels. There has to be some conflict there, at least with some of them, because when dos anyone like torturing their own? I really don't think angels sit around on clouds for eternity, having a blast of a time. With the way God is being depicted here, I wouldn't expect he'd give it to them that easily. It really doesn't seem like he had been doing much of anything himself, but that he had instead giving all the work to the angels. Heck, he apparently thinks too much of himself to stop by once and awile and pay the angels a visit, verifying to them that he is real, insteadof forcing them to follow on blind faith. There may be some lower-ranking angels that have easier lots, but I don't think it's all cookies and cream.

Again, I think it makes things more entertaining, to say the least, by giving them their own personalities. You can't really manipulate and toy with something that is already 100% subserviant. You can't manipulate them if they are 100% mindless and don't have any individuality. Plus, if that were done, then each being would have nearly the same path and there wouldn't be much of a difference. That would be incredibly boring. It is a cruel game to play, but from an objective standpoint it makes sense if that is in fact the goal. Plus, if they are all mindless, then they are unaware of any suffering. If they aren't suffering, there is no challenge. Pushing them to do certain things and testing them would be completely pointless if that were the case. Heck, he wouldn't even have to because it would already be guaranteed that they'd do whatever he wanted them to.

[ExtraCookie]

To all of that angel work you wrote of . . . ahh, here's the thing; a single sentence that pretty much destroys it all (sorry!) Castiel himself said that angels have not walked among humans for 2,000 years! Yeah, I guess we could pick that apart and say "Well, it doesn't mean they weren't floating among humans or standing among them or . . . flying among them or something; interacting somehow!" But, nah, c'mon, you know how Cas speaks. (I love his proper, CNN/biblical talk; it's freakin' cute! It has been commented on several times that not just anybody could deliver dialogue like that and get away with it and I agree! Misha's so cool!) That was his way of saying that for 2,000 years, angels haven't been here. They've been out of the human existence/Earthly picture. Hanging out in heaven. Oh, maybe the warriors have to do, I don't know, angelic military drills sometimes. Maybe at least some of them keep a distant watch on us; for entertainment? Monitoring purposes? Oooh, many could have always been regularly training/preparing for the apocalypse, I guess; there is that, yes!

So you're right, though, of course; there could be more activity going on up there than it seems; more angels suffering than it would seem. It's just that Cas seemed so struck by all the pain he sees "here." The way he delivered that line was intense! It was clearly one of the reasons he was trying to cling to believing in his superiors. It came across as him feeling like, "Wow, these Earthly creatures suffer so very much! It's so shocking! I didn't realize! This paradise business would fix that for them! Isn't that a good thing?! Why is Dean [who has endured even more suffering than most] even fighting this?!" It was the last thing holding him back from listening to his screaming instincts, and he was clinging hard to it. That's a pretty strong reason for me thinking that your average, everyday angel probably has it pretty good (at least by comparison to your average, everyday human). That Cas himself probably has had it pretty good for most of his life. Isn't there at least one scriptural passage that tells of hosts of angels who are just continually hanging around God, literally singing His praises? Grueling in its own way, I s'pose; doesn't quite compare to the struggles of humans to me, though.

It is confusing, however. Cas, Anna and Uriel have all spoken of serving a long time away from home. They've been speaking as though they've been here for a long time. That is a head-scratcher. Until & unless they explain this, all I can figure is that they've been referring to either their time here 2,000 years ago (If so, though, why did Anna wait so long to fall? Or did she bend time and fall into the distant future as a way to try and hide from God/superiors?) and/or heavenly outposts. I certainly think of heaven as a very vast realm. Like outer space (or at least huge planet) vast. And, just like on Earth, there could be (I'm cracking up at myself right now because this show has got me thinking about this stuff in such detail! Bwaha! ) different regions/lands (if you will). Maybe they meant they had to be stationed in some part of heaven far from their "home lands." See what happens when people don't give me proper boundaries?! My imagination runs wild! I need explanations!

Yep, once the whole apocalyptic stuff began happening recently, they've clearly been quite busy, with probably all the stuff you mentioned. They've definitely been fighting to stop seals from breaking. Poor, duped grunts! I wonder how many died for this ruse?! But, as far as the show is letting us see so far, this does not seem to be the norm. Like I said, sure, some angels do some stuff here, but it seems to be a small percentage and to be sporadic. And the angel torture, etc. has probably happened before, but, within the context of the show so far and considering religious texts (insofar as we can with a show like this! ) it would seem it surely is a rarity. I can't quote scripture (cuz my memory isn't like that) but I'm pretty sure it says basically that that's what most angels usually do . . . hang out in heaven and glorify God. Boring, but true. Again, if I'm way off here and anyone can correct me, please do! I am seriously rusty here!

And as to individuality . . . really, God, ultimately, knows what everyone (angel or human) is going to do, anyway. And, since He created everyone and everything, whatever anyone ever does, HE made it happen, anyway, because absolutely everything traces back to Him. HE is ultimately at fault for absolutely everything. Every evil. Every wrong turn. Every speck of pain and sufferfing. All HIS fault. There's no real sport in it for Him. He is omniscient. So, the only bonus or entertainment I can see is him actually watching the process. Why would a "good" being do that? There's nothing good about that. But I suppose Supernatural (like religion) will say there is. Mysteriously. Somehow.

I have never analyzed fiction to death before this show, I swear! What has this show done to me?!! Will we fans ever be right in the head again?!

[Calena]

It has been commented on several times that not just anybody could deliver dialogue like that and get away with it and I agree! Misha's so cool!)

What, you mean not just anyone can say lines like " I am the one who gripped you tight and raised you from perdition"? That never occured to me before.
Nope, I agree of course, Misha is great.

So, the only bonus or entertainment I can see is him actually watching the process. Why would a "good" being do that? There's nothing good about that. But I suppose Supernatural (like religion) will say there is. Mysteriously. Somehow.

I agree that a god behaving in this way is not god. So it's you, Richard Dawkins and me.
I don't think SPN is that likely to go the "mysterious ways" route and tells its viewers a message like god is a great guy and knows what he's doing after all. I'd be disappointed if they did. I accepted the angels, because they have such a great twist on them, but if it turned out they want to convey a pro god message I'd be pissed. But they won't. In Eric Kripke we trust!

I have never analyzed fiction to death before this show, I swear! What has this show done to me?!! Will we fans ever be right in the head again?!

I have been analyzing shows before, but back when I watched Buffy and Star Wars there was no internet (for me - it might probably existed already)
Even years after the series finale you'll still make references to the show, I bet! After all I do it with Buffy and SW all the time.
BTW, have you ever watched SW? Have I asked you that before?
But it's fun to be part of the online community. For a indivualist like me, who doesn't like to be with other people all the time, who savours her alone time, it's terrific, because I feel like a part of a group, but I don't feel croweded - does that make sense?

[candyrose]

Okay, you're correct, somewhat. Hm. Perhaps he meant that angels had not possessed human bodies in that long, literally walking on earth and interacting? Still, however, 2, 000 years isn't very long when compared to eternity. I wonder what 2,000 years would be like in angel terms. Would it be the equivalent to only a few years according to a human perspective?

Even if angels had not been busy on earth for awhile, there is still all the happenings going on upstairs. What about angel torture? And even with the new plan to free Lucifer, surely those guys are always up to no good. They'd need angels to keep an eye on things and then report back when they hear of something in the works. The angels could have been busy trying to thwart their plans and could have done this successfully for years until the Sam plan came into the picture. From the way they talked, it sounded like they had been fighting this for a really long time and were tired of it. That could be why, in the end, they wanted the seals to break. They wanted it to happen, for him to be destroyed, so they could end the battles once and for all. Why not change the game a little and make them thing they are winning, only to come out and surprise them later?

I don't think they completely abandoned humanity for that long. They had to be aware of some things and were probably waiting. I think he simply meant they had not gotten involved, directly, with humans for that long. They had not enlisted their help and called upon certain humans to fulfill specific duties. They had not had to work alongside humans and try to cooperate and interact with them the way they have recently. What about guardian angels? What about the ones who are sent to look after special people? What if they have to look over them all the time? Wouldn't that get boring after awhile, just sitting there, watching someone go about their normal business?

I don't think he was shocked because he had had it so good. I think it was the shock of actually interacting with humans and having to listen to them. In order to even gain Dean's trust, he had to listen a little and interact. He had to learn how to understand him, at least try to, in order to make progress with him. By doing this, he saw things up close and personal and was thus more affected by it than if he had simply been observing from a distance, being unknown to the person being watched. It's so easy to distance oneself and be relatively emotionally detached when one doesn't actually have to deal with it and it doesn't directly affect him or her. Cas really had to push himself to get to Dean. You could tell he was trying to understand him, and the more he began to understand, the more he was affected and thus conflicted about everything he had been taught to believe. I don't think Cas was shocked by all the suffering. I think for a long time he and other angels had probably looked down on humanity because of all the corruptness and suffereing, never really understanding it. I think he was surprised that despite all the ****, humans (Dean especially) would take the pain, the fear, and the vulnerability and that they still love life and want to live. He couldn't understand why someone, especially someone who had been through what Dean had, would want it to continue and not to have it all end for eternal life in Paradise.

I agree with you: It is all his fault because he created everything. However, it is still a sport because it wouldn't all be the same for every individual. There would be different people, with different challenges, struggles, fears , insecurities, strengths, and so on. Because they are so different, it's more interesting and entertaining. It wouldn't be like watching one person is like watching them all. Instead of a bunch of humans all being pieces to one game; it would be a bunch of humans who are a part of different, individualized games. If you were told you had to spend the rest of eternity playing some game, would you want to just say, have only, um, Monopoly? Or would you want many different games to choose from, liek Twister, Cards, Scrabble, and so on. Ah, I don't know. I'm getting rather silly here, but you get the picture. No, there's nothing good about it, but possible explanations could still be formed.

[candyrose]

Hey now, I happen to agree with Dawkins and you know that! Geez, I'm almost agreeing with what y'all are saying--I'm just adding details is all.

[ExtraCookie]

Cas is so freakin' literal! So cluelessly proper! I get amused, though, at his cutting off the "g's" at the end of "ing" words! ("He was workin' against us." "Yeah, well, we're makin' it up as we go.") He talks so properly, then does that? He tends to pronounce is "i's" the way I do, too (country way). I guess it's just Misha's accent, but, for it to work in the show, I just tell myself he just uses Jimmy's accent. As for where he gets his dialogue, hmm . . . from watching CNN and religious shows & reading the Bible over Jimmy's shoulder? I have got to stop over thinking this stuff! It's fun, though!

[Calena]

Originally Posted by candyrose

Hey now, I happen to agree with Dawkins and you know that! Geez, I'm almost agreeing with what y'all are saying--I'm just adding details is all.

True! sorry! And you introduced me to Bill Maher and I'll never forget that. I love you!

[ExtraCookie]

I agree that's another way to take Cas's statement. It's just that, to me, he seemed overwhelmed and surprised by the pain. When we first met him, he definitely came off as a calm, placid, doing-OK-kind of angel. If he was no stranger to pain, why has he changed so much as he's been introduced to human pain? Why would our pain surprise him and invoke such a passionate reaction, while his own pain leaves him placid and mellow? Just seems like if he were used to pain, OUR pain wouldn't strike him so hard. *shrug* It could be either way, of course. Either way will be entertaining! Can't wait!

As to the individuality, yes, but again, where's the sport? No matter our differences, no matter the different choices and paths, etc. He knows exactly what not only the outcome will be but exactly how it's going to go down, each and every step of the way! There is no surprise whatsoever and HE made it all happen! I guess if you look at it as an author being entertained by her/his own writing process (and I guess they are. I suppose I'm feeling some level of entertainment when I write things; but if that's all I had to do all the time for eternity and there were never any surprises or questions, etc., it'd get seriously old seriously fast), I could see a smidge of entertainment value . . . like I said, just in the process of watching it happen. I guess you could also compare it to watching a favorite movie over and over. I guess I'd just expect some all powerful being to want more than that.

This has been a very fulfilling meeting of the Supernatural Atheists Club! Don't forget, your dues are due next week!

And, yes, Calena, I understand what you're saying about the net, you antisocial chick you! I'm much the same way, only I'd be happy to hang out with people more often if I could. I'm a hermit.

[candyrose]

Aw, it's okay. I just felt compelled to remind you and anyone else in here. I love you, too!

Golly, I feel all lovey right now...don't worry, I won't tell anyone about our secret marriage on that special secluded island, off the coast of a country that shall not be named. Oh, crappers, I just did. Oh well...