4.22 Lucifer Rising Discussion Thread

[helps]

grrrr I just don't understand why he was so blind to it, and trusted her so much, that is my only gripe with Sam. Oh god, rant over about Ruby for now, before I damage my laptop. lol.

Yup. That's the problem I've got. I will need some time to take him more seriously again. Also killing the nurse with his agreement isn't one of his shinest moments. But still yay,at least he's back. They both have been through a lot this season. While I think what Dean's done is nothing like what Sam has done, they will able to pay it back to the world by saving it,lol. They both partly helped to start it sooo.....

I love Castiel, I have right from the beginning felt that he is one of the good guys and he came up trumps in this episode, good for him, choosing to help Dean and humanity and make it up as they go along, I loved that he was willing to make his own fate and change it to do what was right. I was really excited when he banished Zachariah and busted Dean out, and then staying behind to fight off the Archangels, what a hero, I love him to death and Misha Collins was awesome

I love him,too. He's gorgeous and righetous. I believed him since the beginning and I'm happy he really is right. Cas never really wanted to be on the bad side, he always thought he's doing the right thing. It was obvious why he was still working with them after all. Like he told Dean What is so worth saving? I see nothing, but pain here.
I think he really believed that after the apocalypse there would be paradise and no one would be in pain and suffer. That might sound silly for us, but he's an angel after all. I see it when I look at him, how he's trying to understand Dean, make a difference between right and wrong things. It's also quite ridiciolous that angel doesn't know what is good and what is wrong anymore. But I'm just happy he listened to Dean and made a right thing. It was great to watch them interact. I loved how Dean was trying to make Cas look into his eyes, how he slapped him. I was little sorry for Cas when Dean told him You soulless son of bitch, what do you care about dying, you're already dead. He then tried to tell Dean something, but he wouldn't let him. But yay, all turned out good. I just hope he's not gonna be hurt or sth. I bet that archangels aren't too good for him either right now.

helps, I thought for a second that he was going to get Dean to drink his blood lol. I am glad that Dean didn't get powers, although we disscussed this possibility in the last thread. He is awesome as he is and he has his angel back on his shoulder.

LoL, it so looked like that. I agree. Dean's is stubborn, persistent, smart, brave and strong. I don't think he'd need that. Of course, it's good to have an angel on his shoulder^^^

I loved Bobby, those amazing things he said to Dean, to bring him back around so that he could make the phone call to Sam, I saw the look on Ruby's face when Sam heard the edited version, oh I waned to hit her so much, I knew she had something to do with it. I am so relieved and heppy that he is still with us. Yay.

OMG! Yes. I hate her face expressions in this ep. Her smirk. I would beat her that it would disappear. It was annoying.
Also her and Sam and screaming nurse in the trank. Not good Sammy. How he will get over this is only the question.

I loved Dean in the green room, being cheeky and stubborn. Knocking the angel statue over was funny, then being tempted by a hamburger, lol, loved it.

That would be my favorite funny scene in this ep. Knocking the angel statue I loved when Cas appeared and Dean took a step left,so statue wouldn't be so viewable and then his innocent look,lol.

! And Cas helped Dean in the end and Zac wants the Apocalypse so that he can have Dean kill Lucifer?

Yup, I was surprised about it. But no wonder they chose Dean,lol.

Yes, all in all amazing episode.^^ I'm just sorry it's end for soooo long I might survive it only because we're getting to meet boys in two weeks.

[helps]

I'm with you all the way, Helps. People always go back to Dean. Dean did this and Dean did that. Yes, they both played a part in the breaking of the seals, but their situations were different.

I'm glad that I'm not alone in this. I wouldn't start bashing Sam, but girls seem to enjoy blame Dean, so I can't really let it go without the argument. After last ep. OMG, could Dean be more amazing? Saying he takes all - the guilt, the pain and Sam the way he is. I really thought kudos to you Dean for forgetting what happened and focusing on saving Sam and stoping the apocalypse.

Dean made a sacrifice, for his brother Sam. He was sent to hell, tortured for decades. Dean was all alone. He didn't have Sam and Bobby there, by his side, trying to help him work through it. They weren't there to remind him of his humanity nor give him any hope. Dean was also completely unaware that he was breaking the first seal and that there were imminent plans to bring on the apocalypse. There wasn't even the slightest hint that made Dean have even a fraction of a thought that indicated that what he was doing would have such drastic consequences, for his brother and the rest of the world. On top of all that, Dean held out for longer than most people would. He didn't cave in as soon as he felt the pain. No, Dean chose to endure pain and torture for years, because he refused to give in. Plus, according to the text, he is a righteous man.

Exactly. That's the point. The thing is that he had no idea that angels are gonna save him. He was there, he's tortured and there was no hope. Thx for that word candy^^. He had no hope to get out, he thought he's gonna be there for good. I'm 100% sure that if he knew that for example after another 60 years angels are coming he wouldn't give in. The problem is that it was like he was about to stay there for good, so he gave it up. But how candy says, there was no one to support him or tell him it's gonna be okey. Or just stand by his side.
Yes, he's a righteous. ^^^

Sam, on the other hand, was not tortured or forced into doing anything. Yes, he was manipulated, but it wasn't like he had a gun to his head. Sam kept going down this dark path, and the whole time Dean and Bobby were there, with him, wishing they could help him. Dean did try to reach out to Sam and offer his help, but Sam wasn't having it. Sam pushed Dean away! People seem to forget that. Of course, Dean wasn't always the most understanding brother in the world, but he was always there by his side, Sam's side. He didn't haul ass or try to kill him when as he saw Sam spiral out of control. On top of all this, Sam repeatedly lied to Dean, betraying his trust and often treating him like garbage. He called Dean weak, cowardly, and accused him of holding him (Sam) back. Most of the time, Dean was simply saying to Sam that his missed his brother, that he wanted to be there for him, and that they could work through it together. But Sam kept pushing Dean away. Most importantly, Sam knew the end was coming and the demons had nasty plans in the works. Unlike Dean, he was aware that seals were being broken and the end was near. Sam was more informed than Dean was.

True. What can I say. I hope that Cal and Kiki and everyone here remembers me saying I love Sam and I understand why he was doing it. I know what made him to act like that,but. Still there's a point that Dean might be hard on Sam, talked him to stop using his powers, but Gosh. He still didn't have to be so awful to Dean. That's a point,sorry. I understand why Sam wasn't sharing this with Dean, but calling him weak and telling him he's holding him back was especially awful. Those eps were ones I was about to really give up on Sam, because he seemed so cold and not caring at all. Fortunately Eric and co. managed to play it out like he was rather desperate and lost. Still Sam will have to earn his points back to make me fully on his side.

I don't think Bobby was necessarily complaining about Dean's whining. I think he was upset that Dean appeared to be giving up on Sam, and being the wise man that he is, he knew Dean would regret it if he didn't go after Sam. Bobby got through to Dean the best way he knew how, the way he thought would be most effective. Dean needed a push in the right direction, and Bobby was there to give it to him.

Sure. I see it now. I was only confused by promo vid, because there was only part where he called him whiny brat and son of bitch. I thougth it was too hard and that Dean doesn't deserve such a treating,but when he started about family making feel you miserable and stuff, I just nodded. I nodded more when he said Dean that he's even better then John ever was. I'm glad someone on the show see Dean's effort.

People still are not too enthusiastic about Casty, but in the finale he risked absolutely everything. If he has not been caught yet, I think it's safe to say he will be on the run next season.

What should I do to be more enthusiastic in your eyes hon? Maybe I could make some flag with 'I love you Castiel' and put it on my window. I think neighbours would love it.
Seriously Misha was awesome! And so was Cas. <3 I totally felt for him and I'm sure this wasn't exactly easy decision as he wasn't sure what's right and wrong anymore.
I was only surprised that one my friend wasn't too enthusiastic about Cas, but I will make her change mind. ^^
Yup, Misha's said that some time ago that he's gonna be in s5. I can't wait for it.

BTW, Gem I see you have new av.^^ looks awesome. I'm gonna make some for Cal asap and I think I'm getting one for me,too. Of course, with Dean and Cas in it.

[GemMaeLee21]

Oh yeah helps, I couldn't believe Sammy with the girl in the trunk, I thought he was really crossing a line. I mean killing demons with the knife in the heat of battle is one thing and might be excused, but this was different what he must have done to this girl. I think it will take him a while to come to terms with it and work it through. I hope he opens up to Dean more, like Dean did about his time in hell, so that maybe Dean can help with his guilt and pain b being there for him. I hope the secrets and lies stop as well, and they trust each other again, I know it will take time but it will be nice to see them take care of each other as equals and sort things out together. They are both strong and capable and even more so together, and they should know it.

[helps]

Yep, it was quite terrible and creepy to hear her screaming. It was like a crossing the line, but all the other stuff made me to overlook it. In other season and situation I guess I would never forgive him doing that, but like Dean, I kind of accepted what he's done and while it was really really bad to kill that nurse, I hope that Sam will be okey in s5. He looked really bad in the end, because he found out he did it for nothing. That he actually was willing to loose Dean, his humanity for greater evil.
I would think they know that they're stronger together, but it seems they don't. But hey ho the ending was quite positive as for their relationship. ^

I'm leavin to the bed, will answer in the morning. See ya girls .

[candyrose]

Nice avatar, Gem. I'm in agreement: I hope we get to see Sam open up a little more now that the brothers are back together. Maybe Dean will be able to be more supportive now. Plus, he can sort of relate to the whole guilt thing.

[GemMaeLee21]

Thanks for the comments on my avatar. I made it for my buddytv profile using the graffiti thingy, lol.

Oh yeah, it might seem that they had been completely pushed apart by all this, but I think they might become closer again. Especially after the talk Bobby had with Dean and then Dean reaching out with the voicemail message, even though Sam didn't hear the real one. Family, and brotherhood is what matters. They have both had it rough so they should understand and support each other more openly now. )

Night Night helps, sweet Deans. lol something I have being hearing people say on Twitter, quite funny.

[candyrose]

Gem:

Hm, I haven't used the graffiti feature, but I think I'll check it out later. Both the brothers have been through some crap, but I think everything that has happened will make their bond even stronger than it was to begin with. I think they both learned a valuable lesson--hopefully, at least--from all the crap they had to go through. They will trust each other more and hopefully be more understanding and be more open to self-disclosure, instead of feeling like they are big enough to deal with absolutely everything alone.

You use Twitter?

[DramaDiva]

I read through all this crazy mess and really have noting to add. Candy said it all so well and I 100 percent agree with everything she has posted about this episode. Bravo Candy !!

[GemMaeLee21]

Originally Posted by candyrose

Gem:

Hm, I haven't used the graffiti feature, but I think I'll check it out later. Both the brothers have been through some crap, but I think everything that has happened will make their bond even stronger than it was to begin with. I think they both learned a valuable lesson--hopefully, at least--from all the crap they had to go through. They will trust each other more and hopefully be more understanding and be more open to self-disclosure, instead of feeling like they are big enough to deal with absolutely everything alone.

You use Twitter?

I look forward to seeing where their relationship will go next season, they have been drifting apart for too long, now its time to come back again.

Umm yeah I kind of use Twitter, I first joined for the Buddytv twitter and to see what the fuss was about. I tweet about my day occasionally nothing too exciting, I follow some Supernatural fans too. Misha Collins joined the other day, he is funny Do you use Twitter?

[ExtraCookie]

This ep. was great! Not a top fave, but great! I'll try not to ramble:

Bobby. Yes, I love him dearly. Yes, his heart was in the right place. Yes, I love that he gave Dean that needed kick in the pants. But--and I realize I'm probably all alone on this--I am pissed off at what he said about John. I give up on the show or most fans ever remembering all the good things about the man and that he did the best anyone could've done under his circumstances. Dean's a better man than John? Not necessarily. Dean has not had to face the same circumstances as John. Has everyone forgotten that John watched his wife bleed & burn to death hanging over her baby son on the ceiling, then barely got his kids out alive? That he was forced into the life of a hunter, with his kids, in order to protect his kids? That the trauma of losing his wife & knowing he was in constant danger of losing his sons caused him major mental/emotional damage? Oh, and he was in 'Nam, too! Has Dean had to face all the horrible experiences and decisions he's had to make with two small, threatened children in tow? Has Bobby? NO. I adore Bobby and respect him much. But this is the first time I've ever disagreed with the man, and I have that right. Boo to him for that. He's not even a father; he has no right to judge. This makes me so sad and angry.

Sammy. Oh, Sammy, honey, sweety. I love him so much. Watching him transform from that sweet, gentle, compassionate, social soul we met into the lost, broken, dark, troubled man heading down hell's road has been heartbreaking. And I know he'll be redeemed somehow, some way, but how?! The bottom line is he did some horrible, horrible things. He killed innocent people. (For that matter, folks, remember, Dean has unnecessarily dispatched a few innocent demon infested people too, lately! That's been bothering me all season! They used to care!) We can say he was trying to save the world. We can say he did it out of love/revenge for his brother. But what kind of world is it when that's the route you have to take to save it? If that's the kind of world this is, then I'm with Cas, "What is so worth saving?" And, as to his brotherly love, said brother begged him not to travel this path at every turn! Bobby told him to stop! Angels told him to stop! Yes, his intentions were pure, but how could he have gone so "far off the reservation?!" I'm hoping that the explanation is pretty much that his demonic powers, mixed with the extreme vulnerability he was gripped by when Dean died twisted/clouded his thinking; much like his dad's situation. Even if it all works out that way, how will he ever forgive himself? How can we ever completely forgive him? I don't think I can bear never seeing that sweet Sammy I knew again! He was such a sweetheart & always thought of others first; that always touched me and won my high admiration. This is so painful!

Cas! Cas, I love you to little bits & pieces, you sweet, darling, beautiful and, yes, bad-ass angel! I've adored & believed in Cas literally from the moment I laid eyes on him, but I never loved and respected him more than I did in this ep.! The best scenes in the ep., in my opinion, were all the ones he was in. Misha is such a treasure! How's he been staying under the radar all these years?! Are people blind?! The best scene was the one in which Dean pleaded with Cas to help him stop the Apocalypse. Talk about chewing up the scenery; it was chewed up literally left and right! Jensen + Misha = amazing! Watching Dean defend mankind as-is and Cas struggling so hard to make the right decision and so desperately not wanting to be a disappointment in Dean's eyes was just awesome and beautiful! There's too much to comment on!!! Wow, they both give such good face! I adore how Cas can't look Dean in the eyes any time he says something he knows inside isn't right; or that, at least, Dean won't think is right. For all that he tries to be unreadable, he's really a heart-on-his-sleeve angel; at least with Dean! Misha, just like Jensen, knows how to say SO much JUST with his eyes; now that's talent! I think the best part there was where Cas looked away and Dean just forced him to look him back in the eyes with his own! *SIIIGGHH MELT* What a perfect little scene! I'd like to see more of that! I liked Dean grabbing him and turning him around to make him look at him, too! I'm sure Dean is the only being Cas would take that from! Cas kind of broke my heart with his something-has-finally-snapped-inside-passionate, "What is so worth saving?! All I see is pain here!" speech. *gulp* Breathtaking. I hear ya, Cas! And, yes, Lucifer wouldn't have risen if Cas had chosen sooner; that ate at me, too. But, as someone else said, you can't really blame him. Please don't forget how hard it was for him. It's amazing he was even able to come to that decision, period. Esp. after he got "dragged back to Bible camp!" (Man, Dean has the best dialogue ever!) All things considered, Cas is a hero through and through. And I never loved, admired and respected him more than when he told Dean he'd hold off the archangel and any other angels that may come, then sent him off to Sammy, then took his stand next to Chuck (who was clearly feeling what I was for the angel! HA at that hand-on-shoulder! Nobody touches Cas but Dean!). We know archangels are the ultimate; yet Cas (just a "grunt") stood his ground. I was cheering! Of course he'll get out of it, but it surely won't be pretty. I'm afraid we may see a damaged Cas (and maybe a damaged Anna?) next year. Sorry if it's blasphemous, but Cas ruled this ep.!

As to our guys, thank goodness they're back together! No, it's not gonna be just "Well, we forgive each other, life goes on!" I'm sure they'll have to work things out and it'll be tough. But they are together. At this point, they are going to have to forgive each other in at least a basic way. They were both played by older, wiser, more powerful beings while they were vulnerable; and each had the love of the other used against him. Although, yes, Sammy's path was so much darker. I guess we're in for some heartbreaking scenes next season, but at least they'll be on each other's side again. That last shot of them holding on to one another like children kind of put a lump in my throat!

There's nothing else I can think to add that everyone else hasn't already covered. I just can't wait until next season! I'm looking forward to Winchesters rebonding with each other and bonding with a rogue angel or two (I so hope Cas and Sammy bond too, now!), Winchesters and an angel (& probably Bobby?) being hunted, watching a lost, newly-converted (to Deanism) angel finding himself & doing guardian duty for our Winchesters, who deserve it--better late than never!--and some vindication for John. OK, the last one is an impossible wish, but it'd be nice! Oh, and, if it is the last season, to actually see John at least one more time! Oh, and an unlikely wish? To see Jimmy again! Or, at the very least, to have his presence acknowledged! It's the right thing to do!