4.22 Lucifer Rising Discussion Thread

[KikiGotTheLastCookie]

Is Azazel literally Lucifer's son, or did he use "Father" like people use it when they mean god? If he really is his son than the Winchesters killed Lucifer's grandchildren back in S1. Cool, isn't it?

I think it is not meant literally - more that Lucifer was the first spawn of evil but I am not sure HOW he actually made/created all these demons after his image?

Which vice versa still raises the question where angels are coming from if God is gone...and gone were exactly?

Conclusion: the ep was brilliant, although there was far less action than I had anticipated.

I agree there, not much did happen which was quite odd but it gives the boys a clean slate to start over... so glad Ruby is gone - but is she gone for good? She has only been sent back to the pit, right?

I also thought it was funny how the boys grabbed each other - they are well scared that Lucifer is rising. So maybe that spoiler that I found where the Winchesters and army of angel is fighting the demons does partially come into play in the last season...and hopefully they finally explain WHY Sam was chosen - they still haven't answered that.

[helps]

Howdy guys...

Aw, that was classic. Starting with Carry on my wayward son. Thank you for keeping this song on the show Eric and crew!That's always great start.

Where do I start.
What was that Yellowed eyed thingie doing there? I thought Dean killed YED and no other YEDs weren't out there??? It seems I was wrong,tho. So this was son of Lucifer? Hmm. And I quite didn't get that Lilith won't be so easy to get there, that she's deep in a pit. What was hard about it? She got there quite easily,I think.
About other stuff in episode,I just loved it. At first, I thought I would hate that little talking Bobby had with Dean, but it turned out well. He wasn't only bashing Dean, but he also told Dean he's better man then John's ever was and that he shouldn't become him. <3 It was really nice talk from Bobby and I think we owe Bobby for getting boys together. I mean, Aww Dean's voice mail was so nice, but dammit!!! How pissed I was to find out that this bitch absolutely changed contain of it. . As candy I was sure entire season that Ruby is on bad side and it's not that long time ago when I even pick up thought that she could be working with Lilith and all that hate was just pretended.
Rofl Teri! I understand how you got pissed off when that little sneaky bitch were yelling out loud "I'm awesome". I would slap her two thousand times if I was there,then I would run over her body and gave her bath in holy water. It's all her fault with Sam.
I think I'm there with candy, I owe you huge I TOLD YOU SO Cal.
There wasn't any surprise about breaking the last seal, cause I think we all thougth Lilith would be the actual last seal. I was only surprised that Dean was really chosen and they wanted to keep him after all. That was quite funny to watch him with angels, because he had some funny lines and faces,too. For example how he was totally pissed off at Zacharian and was thiking about hitting his head with that angel statue, just looked at it and Zach told him to not even think about it. I dunno, but it was amusing. Or the stuff Dean told him. There's quite difference between Sam and Dean. THey both was under the influence - Sam under Ruby's and Dean under angel's- but while Sammy led Ruby do what she wanted, Dean was pretty... Hmm.. Pretty Dean,tho. He was asking them million questions, he was stubborn and cheeky. On the other hand, while I'm happy Sammy was doubting this ep, I will never understand why he didn't ask Ruby and did trust her so much.
I loved how it turned out with Dean and Cas Both were really great in this episode. I'm glad I was right about Casty and he kept promises he gave to Dean. I know Dean was pretty convinving in what he said Cas.
What do you care about dying? You're already dead.
I'm glad Eric didn't leave us hopeless and no matter Lucifer is rising, what matters for me that boys are back together. And I could imagine Cas with them. Candy remember my image of Cas in ripped jeans and shirt like a hunter?

Cas in the last minute came around. Cudos for that, although it all could have prevented if he had stood up sooner.

He should have burst through that door sooner, sigh. But at least he killed Ruby.

Are you kidding me?
At first about Cas. He did enough for brothers. I don't think it was easy choice to do and he was about to tell it Dean before, but his 'cow-workers' stopped him!Then God knows*hehe,it sounds quite ironical in this case* what happened to him in the Heaven and how bad things happened to him. He did huge step when he decided to help Dean in this ep and I worry what consequences are gonna be for him. I totally gotta tell Misha that he's freakin awesome^^^^.
BTW, who else thought that Cas is gonna let Dean suck his blood? ^^

About Dean. How he could be there sooner? He did put into stopping Sam his biggest effort, he listened to Bobby, he called Sam, unfortunately ex-BFF of Sam ruined it. Then wasn't his speech to Cas the most awesome thing he ever said on spn? Like he doesn't care, he'll take the guilt and the pain and will take Sam as is! That was damn huge step from him to say this after last ep ending where Sam beated the hell out of him. After all of this, Dean and Cas*especially Cas* decided for disobedience and ran to stop Sam. Unfortunately too late. I'm fine with Sam now, but I don't see how could anyone possibly blame those two to not doing enough for stopping the apocalypse.
You've got the point that Dean caused start of the apocalypse, but it's not too valid as he was tortured for 40 years, while Sammy's decisions wasn't under the pressure, no one tortured him and he had Dean back. I get why he did what he did, but I'm just saying,you know.

I agree there, not much did happen which was quite odd but it gives the boys a clean slate to start over... so glad Ruby is gone - but is she gone for good? She has only been sent back to the pit, right?

I think that she's gone for good. Knife should be the same thing as the colt. Should kill them for good. I hope she's gone, it would kill me to see her back. She would win the most annoying character. ^

[Calena]

Sam, I know what you will be doing this summer: detoxing. You and House, both. It's rather sad, really.

I think it is not meant literally - more that Lucifer was the first spawn of evil but I am not sure HOW he actually made/created all these demons after his image?

He somehow got the first, Lillith, and demons are created out of humans who have suffered long enough in hell. So technically Luci didn't create himself, only alter material that was already there, created by his former boss.

She has only been sent back to the pit, right?

Ruby has been killed for good with her own knife.

What was that Yellowed eyed thingie doing there? I thought Dean killed YED and no other YEDs weren't out there??? It seems I was wrong,tho.

No, YED is dead, it was a flashback to 1972. Way cool killing the nuns, and way great YED lines: "If you girlies are the praying type..."

So this was son of Lucifer?

That's open for debate, but my creating demons theory speaks against it. Although I would be fine with it, because it would mean the Winchesters had killed Luci's grandkids in S1.

And I quite didn't get that Lilith won't be so easy to get there, that she's deep in a pit. What was hard about it? She got there quite easily,I think.

I think Lillith like Luci couldn't get out, it needed a righteous man to spill blood in hell, and we all know how that was. It was hard because YED had to scheme very long time, first with making the deal with Mary, then getting to Sam, then making the deal with John. He actually didn't finish this mission, others had to take over, namely Ruby.

He wasn't only bashing Dean, but he also told me he's better man then John's ever was and that he shouldn't become him.

I loved Bobby's talk, too, but if he knew about the torture thing he probably wouldn't think that. Or he probably would, because it changes nothing about pushing Sammy away.

I think I'm there with candy, I owe you huge I TOLD YOU SO Cal.

It's sooooo considerate of you to give that to me.

but while Sammy led Ruby do what she wanted, Dean was pretty... Hmm.. Pretty Dean,tho.

Ok, that's a valid point.

Candy remember my image of Cas in ripped jeans and shirt like a hunter?

I wanna see that! Jim should have changed into jeans.

Are you kidding me?

Yep.

Ok, now I'm going to watch the Lost finale.

[candyrose]

Boogers!

Okay, I very much agree. It's already been mentioned, but I still feel the need to repeat it: Why didn't Sam ask more questions? Ruby had connections, yet he really didn't push her for answers. He didn't ask what could happen, where it came from, and why he was getting such special attention. His focus was entirely on using his powers and stopping Lilith.

I really liked how they answered a lot of the questions I mentioned in a previous post. Helps, YED was not back; those scenes were flashbacks. Basically, those scenes implied that Sam was part of the plan all along. YED needed to find someone, like Sam, so he could kill Lilith, break the last seal, and free Lucifer. He gave Sam the demon blood and all his powers because no average human being could kill Lilith. Only someone with special abilities, like Sam has, could kill Lilith. The others that had been chosen, and were eliminated from the competition, served an important purpose. It was a way to weed out the weak ones and find the one who had the most anger, persistence, and so on. Whoever the last special human being standing was needed to be easily manipulated into doing the demons' dirty work. It isn't like the demons could have nicely requested that one of them run off, kill Lilith, and help them free Lucifer. How many people in their right mind would do such a thing, being fully aware of the consequences? Sam had to be convinced he was making his own decisions and was not being forced by others. He had to believe he was the one in control, the one with the plan, and was only receiving a little help, here and there, from Ruby. Judging from everything else, we can assume that if the story had not unfolded like it did, it would have ended with the angels wanting Sam to fight by their side, being the one to kill Lucifer. On the other side of the table, it's safe to say the demons thought Sam would be the one to lead the army during the apocalypse, which means he would have been the one fighting against Dean, trying to stop him from killing Lucifer. That was the plan all along, the plan both the angels and demons had. Dean was supposed to fight in the angel army, while Sam was supposed to fight in the demon army.

It really sucks what Ruby said to Sam. She pretty much admitted that all the bad **** that had happened to him...the loss of the people close to him....was what she wanted all along and she was a part of the plan that caused these things to happen. Damn, it was funny and disturbing how she kept yelling how awesome she was. I really didn't expect that reaction from her. I thought she was going to bust out some killer moves and start kicking Sam. But, nope, she instead chose to remind us all of how frakking awesome and amazing she is.

[Calena]

Okay, I very much agree. It's already been mentioned, but I still feel the need to repeat it: Why didn't Sam ask more questions? Ruby had connections, yet he really didn't push her for answers. He didn't ask what could happen, where it came from, and why he was getting such special attention. His focus was entirely on using his powers and stopping Lilith.

In season 3 he really really wanted to save Dean and in season 4 he really really wanted to save humankind, so I don't blame him for letting it cloud his judgement.

I really hate Ruby now. I gave her the benefit of the doubt, I thought maybe with all the lessons about things that are considered monsters, but might not be, shades of grey, blabla, maybe she really was a good demon (my faith got a little shattered by that evil grin she had after we first saw Sam sucking her blood) She betrayed me, and I wanna hurt her now!

Damn, it was funny and disturbing how she kept yelling how awesome she was. I really didn't expect that reaction from her. I thought she was going to bust out some killer moves and start kicking Sam. But, nope, she instead chose to remind us all of how frakking awesome and amazing she is.

Sam was very weak, and it probably wouldn't have been as much fun kicking him and flinging him around demon style like it was humiliating him.

I am really so sad for Sam. I hope they find something to redeem himself with in S5. Of course the angels say Dean is the one to kill Luci, but angels are lying assholes, so I have hope.

So, back to Lost now.

[candyrose]

In season 3 he really really wanted to save Dean and in season 4 he really really wanted to save humankind, so I don't blame him for letting it cloud his judgement.

Yeppers peppers, you have a point. I still don't think that was the entire picture, though. Sam was emotionally beat up; he had a lot of issues. I don't think, even now, that the only thing he was feeling and/or thinking was about saving the world. Yes, of course he wanted to save the world and be the hero, but it was much, much more than that.

If he had been thinking more clearly and were more emotionally held together, I think he would have realized there had to be a catch to having those powers. The powers came from somewhere, and he knew where that somewhere was. It's kind of common sense to assume it can't be too good of a thing when the powers he had were willingly given to him by the things he wanted to defeat and kill.

I don't entirely blame Sam, though. He did horrible things and his judgment was clouded, yet underneath it all, he never wanted any of those things to happen. The poor guy hasn't had much luck at all, and it's really hard not to want to give him a bug hug, even after all the things he has done. I'm glad the brothers are back together, and hopefully now they can move on and try to fight together and stop the demons' evil plan once and for all.

[helps]

Sam, I know what you will be doing this summer: detoxing. You and House, both. It's rather sad, really.

Haha, good one. I think he will manage it well. Don't worry.

No, YED is dead, it was a flashback to 1972. Way cool killing the nuns, and way great YED lines: "If you girlies are the praying type..."

I'm an idiot!!! I must have missed it while parents were around and so.
Yep, the line was awesome.

I think Lillith like Luci couldn't get out, it needed a righteous man to spill blood in hell, and we all know how that was. It was hard because YED had to scheme very long time, first with making the deal with Mary, then getting to Sam, then making the deal with John. He actually didn't finish this mission, others had to take over, namely Ruby.

I will rewatch it, but of course it makes sense now.

I loved Bobby's talk, too, but if he knew about the torture thing he probably wouldn't think that. Or he probably would, because it changes nothing about pushing Sammy away.

It never stops to amaze me that in your eyes, there's no excuse for Dean, he's so terrible for torturing souls in Hell, while Sam was killing innocent people and there's always excuse for him accordance to you. But of course, Sam was broken and shattered while Dean always have to be on the top, tough guy withouth any sensation, like killing machine. BTW, souls in the Hell are souls of bad ppl anyways no? I mean not all of them, but I would say mostly.
But back to your point. I think that Bobby knows that as he knows about Sam's sucking blood. Do you honestly think that this thing would change anything in Bobby's pov of Dean? He pretty much realizes that Dean's really brave and caring.

It's sooooo considerate of you to give that to me.

Sorry hon . But you were about to give me one,too if you were right and because I was like 99,9% sure that Sam is gonna free Luci and that Ruby is evil, I can say that and enjoy it .

I wanna see that! Jim should have changed into jeans.

Cas would look awesome as a hunter

Yep.

Today is your lucky day kid. I'm not gonna cast away you yet.

It really sucks what Ruby said to Sam. She pretty much admitted that all the bad **** that had happened to him...the loss of the people close to him....was what she wanted all along and she was a part of the plan that caused these things to happen. Damn, it was funny and disturbing how she kept yelling how awesome she was. I really didn't expect that reaction from her. I thought she was going to bust out some killer moves and start kicking Sam. But, nope, she instead chose to remind us all of how frakking awesome and amazing she is.

I know it's weird. I have to rewatch it, but I was like 'yea, you're frakkin amazing you bi*tch and you know what else.. you're also gonna die.' I was surprised she didn't try to escape. That's way she plays.

In season 3 he really really wanted to save Dean and in season 4 he really really wanted to save humankind, so I don't blame him for letting it cloud his judgement.

True. I'm okey with Sam. I understand him well. I don't certainly hate him or anything. I still love him. I'm not saying he's not poor for what happened. After all I don't really care that Lucifer is free, since boys are gonna be there and Cas,too. My point in bashing Sam is usually only defending Dean, because Dean isn't any less poor then Sam and you should remember the next time you bash Dean for torturing souls that if it wasn't for Dean, Sam would be dead.

[Sarah1983]

I thought the episode was excellent! It answered so many questions and left us with a whole new storyline to discover. I loved the flashback to 1942 when Azazel first set his plan in motion for the "special" kids thanks to Lucifer's words. And the fact that he's had this as a plan the whole time before he died...and Ruby was in on it...and the brothers are on the road to recovering their relationship...and Ruby's dead!!!! Woohoo! And Cas helped Dean in the end and Zac wants the Apocalypse so that he can have Dean kill Lucifer? Amazing! It really is going to be a long Summer!!!

[GemMaeLee21]

Oh nooooooo!!!!! Lucifer is most definitely rising. *Run's and hides behind my cushions*

This was an absolutely awesome episode most especially because the evil, demon bitch from hell that is Ruby, got her just deserts from Dean with Sam holding her at last. I practically screamed at the TV "Thank-you Sammy" when he finally called her a bitch. I never trusted her, not for one second, I knew she was a nasty piece of work and I wanted her to pay and for it to be Dean that did it. I knew she was manipulating Sam and that she had a big agenda, grrrr I just don't understand why he was so blind to it, and trusted her so much, that is my only gripe with Sam. Oh god, rant over about Ruby for now, before I damage my laptop. lol.

I love Castiel, I have right from the beginning felt that he is one of the good guys and he came up trumps in this episode, good for him, choosing to help Dean and humanity and make it up as they go along, I loved that he was willing to make his own fate and change it to do what was right. I was really excited when he banished Zachariah and busted Dean out, and then staying behind to fight off the Archangels, what a hero, I love him to death and Misha Collins was awesome. helps, I thought for a second that he was going to get Dean to drink his blood lol. I am glad that Dean didn't get powers, although we disscussed this possibility in the last thread. He is awesome as he is and he has his angel back on his shoulder.

I loved Bobby, those amazing things he said to Dean, to bring him back around so that he could make the phone call to Sam, I saw the look on Ruby's face when Sam heard the edited version, oh I waned to hit her so much, I knew she had something to do with it. I am so relieved and heppy that he is still with us. Yay.

Poor Sam, how is he going to be feeling after what he has just done. He has done some bad things in the name of what he thought was good. I know that Dean will help him throw it. Its poetic that Dean was the first seal and that Sam broke the last. They have so much more in common, they can use their guilt and anger, work together and get rid of Lucifer. I was thrilled to see them back together in that split moment, when Sam grabbed Ruby and Dean plunged the knife, in so awesome, felt like a glimpse of the good old days, and them grabbing each other seeing the light come out of the floor, they are back. Yay. But probably still have a long way to go.

I too was wondering about the white, bright light, Lucifer appears to be coming up from. Will have to wait til season 5, oh so long away.

I loved Dean in the green room, being cheeky and stubborn. Knocking the angel statue over was funny, then being tempted by a hamburger, lol, loved it.

I just loved this episode so much, it explained loads more things to us and has given us more to look forward to, well if you can look forward to Lucifer on earth that is, but you get my drift. I know there wasn't much action, but I don't think it needed it, and this is a cliffhanger so technically this bit of the story needs finishing like with previous series, the last episodes and first episodes, all roll into one.

One final note. I loved how Sam heard Dean's vocie through everything just for a few seconds while trying to kill Lilith. He was getting through to him, Sam heard no-one else until Lilith started taunting him. I liked that because it showed me that he still connected to and needed his big brother, and he wasn't alone.

Great episode.

[candyrose]

It never stops to amaze me that in your eyes, there's no excuse for Dean, he's so terrible for torturing souls in Hell, while Sam was killing innocent people and there's always excuse for him accordance to you. But of course, Sam was broken and shattered while Dean always have to be on the top, tough guy withouth any sensation, like killing machine. BTW, souls in the Hell are souls of bad ppl anyways no? I mean not all of them, but I would say mostly.
But back to your point. I think that Bobby knows that as he knows about Sam's sucking blood. Do you honestly think that this thing would change anything in Bobby's pov of Dean? He pretty much realizes that Dean's really brave and caring.

I'm with you all the way, Helps. People always go back to Dean. Dean did this and Dean did that. Yes, they both played a part in the breaking of the seals, but their situations were different.

Dean made a sacrifice, for his brother Sam. He was sent to hell, tortured for decades. Dean was all alone. He didn't have Sam and Bobby there, by his side, trying to help him work through it. They weren't there to remind him of his humanity nor give him any hope. Dean was also completely unaware that he was breaking the first seal and that there were imminent plans to bring on the apocalypse. There wasn't even the slightest hint that made Dean have even a fraction of a thought that indicated that what he was doing would have such drastic consequences, for his brother and the rest of the world. On top of all that, Dean held out for longer than most people would. He didn't cave in as soon as he felt the pain. No, Dean chose to endure pain and torture for years, because he refused to give in. Plus, according to the text, he is a righteous man.

Sam, on the other hand, was not tortured or forced into doing anything. Yes, he was manipulated, but it wasn't like he had a gun to his head. Sam kept going down this dark path, and the whole time Dean and Bobby were there, with him, wishing they could help him. Dean did try to reach out to Sam and offer his help, but Sam wasn't having it. Sam pushed Dean away! People seem to forget that. Of course, Dean wasn't always the most understanding brother in the world, but he was always there by his side, Sam's side. He didn't haul ass or try to kill him when as he saw Sam spiral out of control. On top of all this, Sam repeatedly lied to Dean, betraying his trust and often treating him like garbage. He called Dean weak, cowardly, and accused him of holding him (Sam) back. Most of the time, Dean was simply saying to Sam that his missed his brother, that he wanted to be there for him, and that they could work through it together. But Sam kept pushing Dean away. Most importantly, Sam knew the end was coming and the demons had nasty plans in the works. Unlike Dean, he was aware that seals were being broken and the end was near. Sam was more informed than Dean was.

I don't think Bobby was necessarily complaining about Dean's whining. I think he was upset that Dean appeared to be giving up on Sam, and being the wise man that he is, he knew Dean would regret it if he didn't go after Sam. Bobby got through to Dean the best way he knew how, the way he thought would be most effective. Dean needed a push in the right direction, and Bobby was there to give it to him.

People still are not too enthusiastic about Casty, but in the finale he risked absolutely everything. If he has not been caught yet, I think it's safe to say he will be on the run next season.