John Winchester: Loving father or obsessed jerk?

[meimei42]

So when I go to Eyecon I'm supposed to be on this panel to discuss John Winchester and whether he was a loving father or an obsessed bastard.

What do you think?

To me I think I fall somewhere in the middle. John wasn't perfect by any means and certainly we've seem some of the worst the man has to offer. But the man gave his life to be sure his son didn't die, so there has to be more to the picture, right?

[adiafaith]

I'd never call John a jerk but I don't see him as a totally loving father either.

I think his heart was in the right place: he did love his family (his sons and his wife) more than anything....possibly more than he loved himself. Yet he did let what happened to his wife get the best of him, so to speak. He became pretty consumed with getting revenge and spent years chasing after a demon when he could've spent that time caring for his sons. I mean, let's face it, Dean was more of a father to Sam than John was and it shouldn't have been like that. And when John was around, he was pretty harsh and stern with his kids.

But, like I said, he's not all bad. He did seem like he wanted a better life for his kids, despite the fact that he brought them up with this hunting mentality. And he was willing to do anything, including sacrifice himself, to protect his sons.

He had good intentions, it's just the way in which he went about things wasn't always in the best interest of his family.

[meimei42]

I pretty much agree with you Adia. John Winchester was certainly no saint, and he put so much on Dean as a kid, more than he ever should have, but I think Mary's death did more to him than he was ever willing to bet.

You get glimpses of this father figure, Sam makes a comment about it being 'miller time' and you have this picture of a father who when he isn't hunting, he's drinking. This man who didn't give a damn.

And then you see their father through Dean's eyes and he's a man who wasn't perfect, but tried his best. And even if he missed a birthday or wasn't home on Christmas, he protected them and taught them to protect themselves.

What I think is interesting is I think both Sam AND Dean have skewed views of their father. Dean is too forgiving and Sam is too condeming.

What I also love is how much Sam is like his father. You see this boy who went to college, who doesn't want this hunting life, who hated the lifestyle he was brought up in, but when he looses the person(s) he loved most, be becomes obsessed. Even more than when Jessica died, when Dean died in Myster Spot I could almost picture John standing in Sam's position, killing everything in his wake, hell bent on revenge. The only difference is, when it happened to John, he had two kids to take care of.

[adiafaith]

Yeah, I definitely don't think John could have anticipated how badly he'd take his wife's death.

But then a part of me really wants to forgive him for his almost reckless obsession with the demon because it's possible his behavior was also fueled by the need to protect his sons. I don't feel like the show ever really answered when John finds about the plans the demon had for Sam so I kinda want to believe that he discovered the truth about Sam while chasing after the demon. If that's the case, then I could understand his obsession over killing the demon, to avenge his wife's murder and protect his son.

And I'm also totally fascinated with the differing perceptions Sam and Dean have of their father. Dean looks at John like a super hero who can do anything. Dean'll do whatever his father says and won't question him because it's almost as if he sees his dad as a man who can do no wrong.

But Sam....Sam questions his father's actions constantly. He doesn't see John as perfect. What's kinda interesting to me is it feels as if Dean looks up to and wants to be like John so he obeys his father to a tee. Yet Sam is already so much like his father (and he seems to internally struggle with that) that he goes against John. For me, when I watch Sam arguing with his father it just feels like I'm watching Sam argue with himself. As if he can see himself in John and is fighting it at every turn...but they are exactly the same.

But back to John...you know, I don't recall any flashbacks of a loving moment with John and his boys. That's something that does bother me 'cause if John's gonna be on this demon crusade, the least he could do is make every moment he spends with his boys count.

Man, I could so sit and analyze this family all day...they're really interesting.

[meimei42]

The only moment I can really think of it when that creature tries to suck the life out of wee!Sam and John busts in the door, kills the thing and grabs Sammy up into his arms.

I know a lot of people have criticized John for that scene, but I can tell you, parents FREAK when something happens to their kids. I remember my mom thought she was supposed to pick me up from the library, I thought I was supposed to call her first. None of the payphones worked so I went to church (LOL) which was behind the library because I spotted my grandparents car. They took me home. My mom came by to get me and I wasn't there and when she got home and found me there she FREAKED out was yelling and was just so upset.

The thought of loosing your kid can make you say harsh things like what John said to Dean.

Whenever it comes to their dad, I loved watching Dean because you're right, Dean really has always thought of his dad as a super hero. And the way Dean looks at himself is almost like this shadow, this nothing that is here to make sure Sammy is okay and dad is alright and kill the things that go bump in the night.

You know I just thought about it now, but its interesting, the two men who were obsessed with killing the YED...neither of them actually had the opportunity to kill it. It was Dean that fired the shot.

Dean was always the voice of reason when it came to the YED. When Sam or his father were willing to risk their lives to kill him, it was always Dean who pulled back. Who put family and their lives in front of killing this thing and yet he was the one to pull the trigger.


I do wish they had shown a different side of John. We all understand him to be this military father who moved his kids from place to place, too obsessed with hunting to see what he was doing to his sons, but I believe there had to be times, moments when John would come down and be a father to his kids. Maybe it wasn't enough, but I think there is more to John than what we have seen and been lead to believe.

[JdsgirlBev]

I'm not sure how much room I have here, but let me put forth a few points that have come up in discussion on my own forum re John.

John Winchester... A man, an ordinary guy, a mechanic, nice wife, couple of kids, plays softball on the weekend. Believes in God, but never thinks about it too much. Goes to work in the morning, falls asleep on the couch after supper. A good husband and father. A little tougher physically, than some, because he was a military man, but starting to lose that edge because he doesn't need it any more.

One night, dozing in front of the TV he hears his wife scream and runs to find...nothing. Everything is under control until he turns his head. And there's his wife, on the CEILING with her belly sliced open, bleeding, but still alive. He looks into her still living eyes and she bursts into flame.

The police half believe he killed his wife. His best friend thinks he's nuts. In the course of trying to find out what happened, he discovers that Every. Single. Thing. that he has assumed about the world was wrong. Reality as he knows it is a myth.

Me? I curl up in a corner and suck my thumb until they take me to a rubber room for the rest of my life! John doesn't have the luxury of a corner, or a rubber room. He has two toddles COMPLETELY dependent on him. For everything.

As I see it, John has several options open to him.

1. He can delude himself into thinking it was just a house fire. Mary wasn't on the ceiling. Mary wasn't sliced and diced. He didn't look into his wife's eyes and watch her, not the walls or the ceiling, but HER burn.

2. He can accept that a demon killed her, but it's all over now, so... all back to normal.

If he had taken either of those choices, I'm guessing that John and Dean would be dead within a couple of years and Sam would be, at best, in foster care or, at worst in Hell being groomed to be the YED's general.

3. He can accept that a demon killed Mary and he and the kids can take to consecrated ground for the rest of their natural lives. He could train the boys to protect themselves. He'd have them 24 hours a day. They'd have no friends at ALL. Never go anywhere, never go to school or be in a school play, never go on a date...


4. John can leave the boys with someone, Bobby or Jim, while he goes off to hunt the YED. A lot of people say this is the option John should have taken. BUT we have no idea when, canonically speaking, Bobby or Jim were introduced into the Winchesters lives. And of course the boys would have no psychological scars from being abandoned by John.

OR John can walk the finest damn line a man has walked since Methuselah was a youngster.


John has, for several years, two children utterly dependent on him. (Dean is 4. He can't change diapers, feed the BABY, do the laundry, walk the floor at 3:00am when Sammy has an earache, or is screaming in pain because he's teething, or has colic. Dean can't go out and work to get the funds to buy groceries or pay rent. For 4 years at LEAST John is the sole caregiver to two small children. All the while they are in constant MORTAL danger from the YED, who has already attacked the Winchesters at LEAST once after Mary's murder.) So...from the time they get up every day, the boys meals, the clothes on their backs, whether they brush their teeth, every single thing devolves to John. But, even more than most fathers, John has their LIVES to think about.

John has to learn all there is to learn as fast as he can cram it into his skull. He takes his children with him, so that he can protect them from an enemy that can enter his world at any time, and in any place. An enemy who can stand on holy ground and slash the throat of a priest. An enemy who can withstand the touch of holy water. An enemy who can fool a man's own children into thinking he isn't possessed when he is. An enemy that the rest of the world doesn't know even exists.

John did everything he could, in my opinion anyway, to let Dean know that he loved him, but couldn't afford to be the kind and gentle father that he WISHES he could be, because he's trying to teach them enough to save themselves from a merciless foe in case John himself is dead.

There's LOTS more in this discussion if anyone would like to read it.

[meimei42]

Some very awesome points! Its very true, Dean couldn't be changing dipers, making mac and cheese or any of that stuff. John had to have either done it himself, or had friends there to help him. I think a combination of both.

Dean and Sam grew up knowing about demons and ghosts, John's whole world came crashing down around him with the loss of his wife to this demon. And why would a demon come after his wife in the first place? If it came after Mary, what about Sam and Dean? He had to feel they weren't safe and in a way, him turning to hunting, learning everything he knew, had to be some way of trying to protect his sons from being killed the way their mother was.

[adiafaith]

Ok, I gotta admit, I'm one of those that criticized John in that scene. I understood how freaked out he must've been in the moment, but I really wished after he'd yelled at Dean he had a moment where he kinda just took a breath and realized that Dean was just a kid. He did what a typical kid would do. I would've so preferred John apologizing to Dean for yelling at him, even if it would've been just a short scene. But he very much had that military mentality: if you don't follow orders, people die! Sometimes that's true but why put that type of pressure on such young kids?

I almost feel like with Dean that he doesn't feel like he's good enough to be like his father and that the only thing he can do is the role John gave him from the very beginning: look after Sam. And that's one of the areas where I think John messed up as a parent because he never helped Dean figure out who he is as a person. It's like Dean has no identity other than protector of Sam. That's partly why he lost it when Sam died; the only job he's been given and Dean couldn't do it.

You know what? I never realized the thing about the YED, Dean being the one to kill him. I'm definitely glad now that it was Dean to do it. John and Sam never got to satisfy that revenge obsession, which makes me wonder if it was worth it to be that consumed with revenge.

I wish they'd show other sides of John too...even in this season I'd love to see some flashbacks of the boys with John in more fatherly moments.

And to your post JdsgirlBev,
I get the impression that John probably took care of the boys right up until Dean became old enough to take on the role of "caregiver" and then he went off on his hunt. I'm not 100% knocking him for that but he really should've been more emotionally present when he was around his boys. But, then again, I'm not so sure he was capable of doing that after Mary's death.

Oh, and I thought the demon wasn't going after Mary. Yellow Eyes said she sort of walked in on him and Sam; it wasn't his initial intention to kill her.

[JdsgirlBev]

Originally Posted by adiafaith

Ok, I gotta admit, I'm one of those that criticized John in that scene. I understood how freaked out he must've been in the moment, but I really wished after he'd yelled at Dean he had a moment where he kinda just took a breath and realized that Dean was just a kid. He did what a typical kid would do. I would've so preferred John apologizing to Dean for yelling at him, even if it would've been just a short scene. But he very much had that military mentality: if you don't follow orders, people die! Sometimes that's true but why put that type of pressure on such young kids?

What we are seeing in that scene is DEAN'S MEMORY... it's how HE feels coloured by guilt and affected by the passage of almost 20 years. I wonder if I can accurately recall even the MOST important event's in my life from 20 years ago.

I almost feel like with Dean that he doesn't feel like he's good enough to be like his father and that the only thing he can do is the role John gave him from the very beginning: look after Sam. And that's one of the areas where I think John messed up as a parent because he never helped Dean figure out who he is as a person. It's like Dean has no identity other than protector of Sam. That's partly why he lost it when Sam died; the only job he's been given and Dean couldn't do it.

This is a quote from Dodger Winslow: "The YED caused the damage to Dean. John HEALED as much of that damage as he could, given that ALL his social support to do so was stripped away and that he is dealing with 1) devastating grief himself, 2) a complete restructure of everything he has ever known as reality, 3) a dramatically traumatized 4 year old and a de-mothered 6 months old infant and 4) a constant source of supernatural threat to his sons (a demon hunting them) that he can't remove or address or even understand, and which he can't seek help from any of the places he would normally have gone for help for threats against himself or his family.

John is in an IMPOSSIBLE situation with incrediby unique and devestating mitigating factors; and yet still, he raises a relatively functional man from a dramatically traumatized 4 year old and a very functional man from a six month old ... all while effectively keeping them out of the crosshairs of the DEMON hunting them and training them to protect themselves against this demon that has targeted them ... none of which was John's doing.

The YED damaged Dean, not John. And, in large part, John's choice to charge Dean with that responsibility as far as he did is most likely the only reason Dean recovered at all from the devastating psychological and developmental damage the YED did to him not just by killing his mother, but by destroying his entire newborn understanding of reality and subjecting him to the pressures of a life-long hunt."

I wish they'd show other sides of John too...even in this season I'd love to see some flashbacks of the boys with John in more fatherly moments.

Me too....believe me... me too.

Oh, and I thought the demon wasn't going after Mary. Yellow Eyes said she sort of walked in on him and Sam; it wasn't his initial intention to kill her.

Weren't other mothers (Max Miller's, for example) also killed in the same way Mary was? The family that Dean and Sam saved in Salvation, wasn't she on the ceiling about to get sliced up the way Mary was?

[meimei42]

I'm going to respond later because I don't have the time to go into it.

I think John could have done more to make Dean feel better as a person. Maybe he didn't know how to deal with it, maybe John was too worried about protecting his sons from evil than from their own inner demons. Dean has a lot of weight on his shoulders, weight that John put on him (and admited to putting on him in IMTOD) and I think if John hadn't been so obsessed with killing the YED then Dean could have had an identity outside of being Sam's guardian.

And I agree with you Adia, I wanted to see John apologize to Dean. But it took my mom hours to apologize for freaking out on me and I think John was more worried about instilling this fear in Dean about protecting his brother, than he was about Dean's feelings. He's a military man, Dean needed to man up and take it because with what they do. Its not just that Sam got into the Lucky Charms or something when he wasn't supposed to, we're talking LIFE OR DEATH and John needed Dean to understand that there is more at stake for these two than most other kids. I don't know what John knew about the demon at that point, but certainly he knew if something came after his wife, there was probably a reason and that his kids weren't safe either. Dean had to understand the importance of having his brother's back very young and very fast because the stakes were too high.

More later lol.