John Winchester: Loving father or obsessed jerk?

[meimei42]

Originally Posted by adiafaith

Definitely not babbling.

I would've wanted to see what John was like in WIAWSNB ep too. I mean, we knew he was on like a softball team and all (and most likely not hunting) but a glimpse of how he was with his kids would've definitely been nice to see.

I think it was a scheduleing this or whatever, but could you imagine a scene where Dean meets his father and he's this normal guy? Maybe he gives him a hug and watch to watch the game with him. I think as much as Dean was thrown by seeing his mom, seeing his dad who loves him might just be more powerful. This dad who maybe is even proud of him, or who acknowledges him outside of 'you need to protect your brother'. Dean's whole life is wrapped up in this one man and the choices he made when Dean was just a kid. I think it would blow Dean away.

Originally Posted by adiafaith

For Dean, he saw his mom die when he was a kid. He saw her on the ceiling in that fire and I don't think that's an image he'd ever be able to get out of his mind. That was gonna be something he always carried with him. But I think John played a pivotal role in how (or really if) Dean would recover from that. The only way he was going to learn how to deal with his emotions over what happened was through his father. John would've needed to be there for Dean and to be able and willing to talk to Dean about what happened. But he didn't do that....most likely because he couldn't....so the Dean we see as an adult is a direct reflection of how John failed as a father. And I'm not sure if I'd have been able to step up and be the ideal parent either in a moment like that, but John owed it to Dean to at least try. Because, once you have kids, it's so not about you and your problems anymore. It's about what's best for your kids.

Dean is so emotionally damaged as an adult and the only thing that seems to make him normal is his brother. He has this big bravado he puts on with the women and the beer, but deep down inside you see this longing for family and for affection and for being care for.

With Cassie you see that he was so vulnerable to her. He, the guy who KNEW you never tell the family secret, spilled his guts to this girl. Dean doesn't fall easy I don't think, but he falls hard. Once he lets you in, its hard for him to let go.

You see the need and want for emotional attachment as well when he meets Ben. If he didn't think he'd die in a year, I think he would have honestly stopped and considered digging in roots. You could see it in his eyes how much he wanted this life that he's convinced he can't have and I think this is a direct result of not only his upbringing (because Sam doesn't have these same fears so much as he's afraid everyone around him is going to die) but of the weight his father put on him and probably because I think Dean remembers the worst times that his father went through.

There is a scene in season one, I think its Dead in the Water, where he is talking to the kid and the kid doesn't talk and he tells him for awhile after his mom died he didn't feel like talking much either. I see Dean as this completely tramatized child who never really healed and maybe he would have if his father could have been there. And I'm not angry at John because he wasn't because I'm not sure how I would have dealt with what he was dealing with, but I think whether or not John meant to hurt his kids, he did.

Originally Posted by adiafaith

For Sam, he was too young to remember what happened to his mother but he could see the effect that tragedy had on his dad and his brother. And he could see the way they handled losing someone they loved dearly and, not surprisingly, behaved in the same manner over losing his girlfriend. It's kinda sad because John didn't adequately equip his boys with what they'd need on an emotional level so, as adults, they're both still struggling to deal with their feelings. And that's, at least to me, partly the reason they have such a hard time over the idea of losing each other. They're all each other has, true, but they also never really learned how to deal with loss.

I think they saved each other. Sam and Dean might not have ever gotten along as kids, but it was them against the world and loosing that one person who has always been there with you, who made you meals, who tucked you in at night, who read you a story or let you have the last of the lucky charms--its hard to deal with ever loosing the one connecting.

I think that had John been a more constant presence in their lives the relationship Sam and Dean share might not be as strong and maybe as dependent as it is today.

Originally Posted by adiafaith

And the pictures you have of John are similar to the images I get of him. I also suspect that he often came in and would drink his problems away and never spoke to Dean about their mother. And I get the image that Dean probably tried once to ask John about it, to talk about it, and John probably exploded at him. So he never brought it up again. I'm guessing that because when Sam mentioned their mother to Dean when they were kids, Dean totally screamed on him not to mention her, almost as if he was reenacting a scenario that had went down with his father.

I can totally picture that. John is such a broken, shell of a person, I can totally picture that. I can picture Dean fielding Sam's questions, the very ones he probably asked but was now old enough to know not to ask. I think Dean played metiator more often that any kid his age should have to. He's the voice or reason because both Sam and John have the tendenacy to get obessive and single minded.

I really wonder about the kind of person Dean would have become without the strain of his childhood.

Originally Posted by adiafaith

Oh that's so perfectly said. Plus I always felt like Dean wanted so much to be close with his father so he did what his dad wanted him to do and what his dad loved. So when his dad entrusts him with the care of Sam or the car or sends him on hunts, Dean will do it to the best of his ability...almost as if he can't let his father down or fail at the task his dad has given him. And also in his obedience and diligent care he takes in Sam and in the car, he's somehow closer to his father...or at least he is in his head.

I think Dean does everything he can to immulate and please his father. I don't know if its just because he was taught to be obidient, if because he's terrified if he doesn't do something his father asked that something bad will happen, like he thinks no matter what, father knows best, or if he's just afraid of letting him down.

I can picture Dean on a hunt and screwing up and his dad or Sam getting hurt because he wasn't paying enough attention and these incidents just built up until he follows orders without question.

Dean's biggest issue I think that his father heaped upon him is his idenity and that he doesn't exist outside of his responsibilities. He's only useful when he's taking care of Sammy or his dad's car or whatever. Without hunting, without his brother to take care of, without his father to please, he doesn't exist in his own head. Like a useless piece of flesh.

[JdsgirlBev]

This is a cool discussion. These are some points that were made in a LJ discussion of the Winchesters. I've compressed it somewhat. Some of the below is mine and some of it is from other people with whom I am in agreement.
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"A preschooler 4-6yr, can NOT care for themselves, let alone an infant. It's physically, mentally and emotionally impossible and that is according to EVERY school of though on childhood development. In fact, if kids do not have parental care as a preschooler, they become feral... they lose all ability to communicate or function as a human. It's well documented. A preschooler must have their whole being engaged during that age... so not only was John parenting and the sole nurturer of baby Sam, but he was also doing a good job with Dean too.

In '83, microwaves were a luxury. Dean, as a preschooler wasn't boiling water. After seeing his Mom killed by fire, a 4 year old wasn't messing with a stove and open flame. A preschooler doesn't have the small movement coordination to do diapers or measure formula. They don't have the cognitive skill to clean a baby after messy poops correctly, or deal with teething. They physically can't move another person around with ease, if that person is almost than half their size. Nor can they stay up on little to no sleep to care for a teething/crying baby. Dean wouldn't even be able to lift Sam out of a crib by himself.

And what would Dean do for himself?? No microwave... we didn't have that many pre-fab'd dinners back then. Have you ever seen a preschooler try to pour milk or juice?? How would he take care of his own earaches, loose teeth, sore throats, leg cramps, tummy aches and nightmares.

Who taught Dean how men communicate with kids? He knows to get down on their level, how to talk to them, how to be loving in a very manly way, much different than how women interact with kids.

In the same age bracket, people seem to think John went on long hunting trips, or spent most of his time researching (or drinking). There wasn't a Disney or Nick channel. PBS had kids stuff until noon. Morning cartoons were over by 8am on weekdays, 10am on weekends. Few people had VCRs, those that did didn't have many kids tapes, because buying tapes was still so expensive (anyone remember that BETA ruled that time?) and where would John get a VCR? Hotels & cabins didn't have them. Broadcasting ended at midnight, with the National Anthem... TV was not a babysitter back then.

Every photo we have of the Winchesters, shows John being a loving dad, pre & post fire. John kept that photo of him hugging his boys with him on hunts and even displayed on his mirror in the Pilot...showing that after 20 years, that photo and the memories were so important that he had the picture with him constantly. Sammy did school plays (Shadow), he played soccer and John kept the trophy (BDABR). John checked up on Sam at Stanford (Bugs), if he wasn't emotionally invested in him, why would he check up Sam?

As a child, who was reading to and engaging Sam so much as infant-toddler that he was able to grow up to be so inquisitive? Dean, who wasn't old enough to read yet?

Who taught them to show love and concern for each other, if they were not shown it as children themselves. Family friends? Canon make NO mention of family friends at ALL.

John's first conversation with Sam, years after the big fight, and Sam thinking Dad might not even want to see him again, but both boys run for hugs and all tear up in Shadow. Men, especially MILITARY men, don't do that stuff easily. But obviously John made it clear to both his sons that men show love & tears (Dean WIAWSNB). Really, we have never seen an ep with John, that he wasn't showing touchy-feely love for the boys...even in flashbacks.

Dean has issues. But, a good 75% of them stem from his Mom being killed at that stage of his development. Freud, Jung, all those guys agree. The age of 4-6 is the most damaging to lose a parent. Losing a parent of the opposite sex during that age forever stunts your ability to form relationships...so much so its usually a key catalyst for many serial killers.

John would do anything for his kids. Dean would do anything for his family. Sam was so protected, he didn't need to even think about it as a child, but now, he would too.

Dean has his own opinions, and did argue with John. He loves food, did we ever even see John eat? He had many girlfriends, while John was, as far as we have seen celibate after Mary. Dean loves steam showers and magic finger beds and even Oprah (Bugs). He's a hedonist, while John became an ascetic. Dean also wants to be a dad and adores Ben... and that would be because he was raised by a man who was an involved and loving father."

[adiafaith]

Ooh, I gotta come back to respond to your post JdsgirlBev.

But for now...

...but could you imagine a scene where Dean meets his father and he's this normal guy? Maybe he gives him a hug and watch to watch the game with him. I think as much as Dean was thrown by seeing his mom, seeing his dad who loves him might just be more powerful. This dad who maybe is even proud of him, or who acknowledges him outside of 'you need to protect your brother'. ... I think it would blow Dean away.

Oh, that would blow me away too! But yeah, we've already seen that alternate life where things were so different for Dean and Sam and their mom...so why not see the same with John? A part of me thinks though that if he were to see that other John, that the pedestal he put his father on might come crashing down. I mean, Dean's willing to admit now that his father put a lot on him and he shouldn't have given him all of that pressure and responsibility. But I think he still sees his father as this great man in spite of that. To see John behaving the way he should've been and giving him what he needed emotionally and mentally might really make Dean step back and look at the man his father really is. And I'm not so sure Dean's able to do this right now. In some ways, he still needs to see his father as perfect and as the superhero and up on that pedestal...because if that isn't who John is, then what has Dean been doing all his life when he looked up to him, obeyed him diligently, and emulated him.

Dean is so emotionally damaged as an adult and the only thing that seems to make him normal is his brother.

'Cause Sam knows Dean better than anyone else. I think about that episode Bloodlust and it's a perfect example of what Dean could've turned after into after John died had he not had Sam around...angry, bitter, quick to act, lacking in compassion...all of the things Gordon was. But Sam could recognize Dean spiraling out of control and help to bring him back from that dark place. It's something John could've never done for Dean.

He has this big bravado he puts on with the women and the beer, but deep down inside you see this longing for family and for affection and for being care for.
With Cassie you see that he was so vulnerable to her. He, the guy who KNEW you never tell the family secret, spilled his guts to this girl. Dean doesn't fall easy I don't think, but he falls hard. Once he lets you in, its hard for him to let go.

Oh, first I gotta say, I loved Cassie. Some people didn't like her but I thought she was great. A perfect match for Dean and she is really the only girl Dean has allowed himself to get truly vulnerable with (I mean, even with Lisa, I don't think he would've exposed what he did for a living had it not been for Ben becoming involved). And I loved that Cassie was able to draw that out of Dean and let us see another side of him.

But he does put on a bravado. Even with Cassie he tried it 'cause she said that whenever they get close or anywhere in the neighborhood of emotional vulnerability, he backs off or finds some way to shut the door. That's his M.O. And I think it's partly because he doesn't know how to let people in, because he doesn't know how to deal with emotions, and because if he lets someone get too close, they may see what he really is on the inside. But when he let her in, he did fall hard. I mean, seriously, he was really hurt over her breaking up with him and despite the front he tried to put up when he saw her again it was as if his feelings were totally exposed and he was emotionally naked...and we all know this isn't the norm for Dean. And I know how things ended between them, but I'd honestly love to see Cassie again. Not now....Dean's still too screwed up and his fate is kinda in question right now and I don't think romantic relationships are something I wanna see on the show week after week ('cause I'm still salty over the whole PB brotherly interactions being reduced and ruined by the inclusion of Sara)...but maybe when the series comes to an end. If the brothers end up going they're separate ways (and honestly, I'd like to see them end going off to live their own individual lives rather than forever clinging to each other), I'd like to see Dean go off to see Cassie, especially since he said he'd see her again.

You see the need and want for emotional attachment as well when he meets Ben. If he didn't think he'd die in a year, I think he would have honestly stopped and considered digging in roots. You could see it in his eyes how much he wanted this life....

You know what was so great about that story with Ben and Lisa...the fact that I kinda believe Dean had probably never stopped and thought about having kids and being a family man. Then he saw Ben and after thinking that Ben could be his child he realized he would be happy with that. That it was a life he'd like to have. And even in DALDOM, when he saw Lisa in his head and she was talking about them caring for Ben, it was so clear that this was a life that he wanted. But it was almost like he was this outsider looking in...like he was seeing a world he wanted to be a part of but can't. And part of why he can't is due to him dying...I know he wouldn't have wanted to put Ben and Lisa (but especially Ben) through the type of loss he experienced as a child. But also because he still hasn't established an identity for himself outside of the one John gave him. So, in his eyes, it's like he may not feel he has anything to truly offer Lisa and Ben and that he isn't really deserving of that life.

But also, I have to admit that I wouldn't have ever wanted to see Dean with Lisa and Ben in that way. He's spent his whole life as the "care giver" and the "protector" and I'd really like to see him in a position where he's being looked after. I mean, John never properly looked after Dean. He kinda raised him to be able to look after himself and protect Sam but he's so desrving of having someone looking out for his best interests. Not to say I want him all helpless, but to be able to see him with someone caring for him as much as he's cared for Sam. Actually...Sam's that person, lol.

I think its Dead in the Water, where he is talking to the kid and the kid doesn't talk and he tells him for awhile after his mom died he didn't feel like talking much either. I see Dean as this completely tramatized child who never really healed and maybe he would have if his father could have been there.

I loved his interactions with that boy...it was as if Dean could see himself in that kid and he was behaving in the way he would've wanted and the way he needed John to behave. It was really touching because I got the impression that somewhere inside Dean he knew, based on his experience with his own father, what could potentially happen if no one reached out to this little boy and it was as if he didn't want to see this innocent child carrying the weight of such a traumatic experience.

...but I think whether or not John meant to hurt his kids, he did.

And that's my issues with John right there in a nutshell. He screwed up. He had good intentions but he ultimately screwed his children up. And the best intentions in the world aren't gonna undo those mistakes he made. This reminds me of one of my friends. She's got two sisters and all of them have kids. Well one of her sister's...she isn't a bad parent, but she's not the best parent in the world. And my friend was like, "there's a better way for her to do things and she could be a better mother, but she's doing it the only way she knows." And I argued that because I'm like a good parent is a parent that doesn't just "do it the way they know" but will seek out another way to be able to give their child the very best. And John didn't do that. He just did what he knew and what he could...but his kids got hurt in the end 'cause they needed the best.

I think that had John been a more constant presence in their lives the relationship Sam and Dean share might not be as strong and maybe as dependent as it is today.

Heh, this is why for the purposes of the show, John needed to do just as he did! 'Cause I don't really see these two being able to sit in the car and travel across the country and constantly be around each other in the way that they do had John been an ideal parent. They would've been totally self-sufficient and individualized and wouldn't be leaning on each other so desperately because John would've helped them figure out their place in this world.

I can picture Dean fielding Sam's questions, the very ones he probably asked but was now old enough to know not to ask.

Ooh, I think a part of me would love a scene where Dean is asking John some of these questions as a child. I mean, I get images of it in my head when I see Sam doing it to Dean in flashbacks, but man, I'd love to see it with Dean and John. Or better yet...the Dean we see is so tough and I'd love to have a moment where we get a flashback of Dean having an interaction with John and maybe John screams at him and he bears the brunt of that anger and then goes off, closes himself off from John and Sam (maybe in a bathroom or closet) and breaks down crying. Just one scene like that 'cause he's not emo like Sam but I gotta believe that, as a child, he's had a moment where he just broke down into tears and had no one to comfort him.

I think Dean played metiator more often that any kid his age should have to. He's the voice or reason because both Sam and John have the tendenacy to get obessive and single minded.

Yeah he does, but I think it's because he's the only one between the three of them that truly knows and understands his father and his brother. Sam knows Dean but I never got the impression that Sam really got to know his father, outside of knowing that he was very much like his father. And John, hmph, well John never really got to know either one of his sons. But Dean knew them both...when John came home I got the impression that Dean spent the most time around him, looking after him. And then Dean went off with his dad hunting, so that was additional time they had together. But when John was gone, Dean was constantly around Sam, caring and looking after him...so he got to know Sam well too. When you think about it, Dean was father to both Sam and John so when those two fought, Dean was like the father breaking up his two sons....a role Dean shouldn't have been in but was in just due to the dynamics of that family.

I really wonder about the kind of person Dean would have become without the strain of his childhood.

Hmmm...possibly like the Dean we saw in WIAWSNB. I mean, there's no telling how much better or worse he'd have been had he not been given all those pressures...he could've just wound up being this rebellious teen who was disobedient and turned into an adult who found himself in trouble and couldn't give a rat's a** about Sam or he could've ended up going off to college like his brother. Hard to say. But I definitely don't think he would've been as emotionally damaged had his father been emotionally available.

I think Dean does everything he can to immulate and please his father. I don't know if its just because he was taught to be obidient, if because he's terrified if he doesn't do something his father asked that something bad will happen, like he thinks no matter what, father knows best, or if he's just afraid of letting him down.
I can picture Dean on a hunt and screwing up and his dad or Sam getting hurt because he wasn't paying enough attention and these incidents just built up until he follows orders without question.
Dean's biggest issue I think that his father heaped upon him is his idenity and that he doesn't exist outside of his responsibilities. He's only useful when he's taking care of Sammy or his dad's car or whatever. Without hunting, without his brother to take care of, without his father to please, he doesn't exist in his own head. Like a useless piece of flesh.

I think about when John finally reunited with his sons and he made a comment to Dean about the car. He said "Dean, why don't you touch up your car, before you get rust. I wouldn't have given you the damn thing if I thought you were going to ruin it." Dean's facially reaction was so great...he went from looking slightly embarrassed at being scolded (yet of course trying to play it off and save face in front of Sam) to pissed at himself for failing to do a task his father had given him: taking care of the car. It was so telling of their relationship, especially of the way things were probably like when they were off hunting together. And yeah, I could totally see Dean off hunting with his dad and not doing something his father told him to do...or even still, not doing something exactly the way John told him to do it, and John flipping out on him.

But the thing about that comment John made about the car and about Dean emulating John and follow his orders is that no matter what he does Dean can't win. A part of me thinks it must've made Dean feel slightly special and important as a child for his father to entrust him with the task of looking after his brother (even though over time I'd suspect that, like any typical kid, looking after his baby brother got annoying). It was as if John was saying he could be given a role to play and trusted to do the job. And then over time, having shown that he was capable of that task, then John probably gave him another task of going out on hunts with him. Then, again after time, John gave him the car and the task of caring for it. Then, again...John gave him the task of going out on hunts on his own. And it must've meant something to Dean 'cause in way it was as if John was saying he thought his son was capable of fulfilling these duties. And for Dean it was like, I'm somebody when I do these things. Like if you watch him when he's fixing his car, the diligence and care he puts into it, because it's more than just a car...it's what determines who he is to his father and to himself. But if he fails to do the things John has put on him to do (to protect Sam, to care for the car, to complete a hunt) he's nothing. But, in all honesty, even if he does those things, he still feels like nothing because he'll never be able to do them as good as his father could (or at least in his head). He's totally dead on the inside and just this shell of a person John created. That's why it was so heartbreaking in DALDOM when he saw himself in his head, this dead version of himself....he thought it was just a dream and he could make it go away by shooting it, but in actuality, it was who he's become.

[adiafaith]

Heh, I'll keep this one short....er.

So Jdsgirl, I agree that there's no way Dean could've been taking care of Sam when he was only 4 or 5. Definitely impossible. But, like it's been said before, there's nothing that's been said proving that John was doing it all by himself. And even if he were, it doesn't make him a good father. It takes more than changing diapers and feeding a baby to be a good parent. And, after what had just happened with his wife, I could almost envision John doing all those things (changing diapers, warming bottles, feeding Sam) as if he were just going through the motions. In the Home episode, Sam asked the man who'd worked with John years ago what John was like. And the man told him that John really loved his family and was always doting on his kids. But that he changed after the fire. Now I'd expect that change also spilled over into how he interacted with his kids as well.

Also, in that same episode John knew his boys had been looking for him and that Dean had told him he needed him and couldn't handle this job on his own, yet John didn't go to their old home to meet up with his sons. He said that he wanted to see them but he just couldn't until he found out the truth. Now, I know John was really struggling with what had happened to his wife, the memories that house held, and uncovering some mysteries regarding Sam but...his kids needed him. Dean was almost in tears when he told him he needed him. And John didn't show up for them. As much as John was dealing with he really should've been able to put his feelings and issues aside to just be there for his kids in that moment. And the fact that he didn't is a good example of how he can be emotionally unavailable to his kids.

Last thing, I don't necessarily agree that Dean wants kids or learned how to be loving to kids because John was a good father. You can have a crappy parent and still be capable of being a good parent. I think Dean is great with the boy from Dead in the Water and with Ben because he could see a part of himself in those boys...not because John taught him how to be good with kids. Speaking from my own personal experience, I didn't have great parents (my father was non-existent and my mom was horrible) and I'm actually really good with kids. And I didn't learn that from them...I just know how I wanted to be treated when I was younger and in turn try to treat kids in that.

[Calena]

I'm in the process of rewatching the first season, and yesterday I watched ep14 Nightmare. The brothers meet Max, whose mother it turned out was burnt alive by the same thing that killed Sam and Dean's mum. Only Maxes Dad started drinking heavily and abusing/beating his son after that. Max uses his newfound telekinetic abilities to kill his father and uncle (who participated in the abuse) and the brothers prevent him from killing his stepmohter. Max goes on to kill himself.
It really touched me and it sheds very positive light on John Winchester, when Sam said towards the end of the episode that if John had a little more tequila and a little less demon hunting the brothers might have had Maxes childhood.
So yes, John wasn't the ideal dad, but how could he have been under the circumstances? His obsession with hunting could have been what prevented him from taking his frustration, desperation and anger out on his boys, like Maxes Dad did, who blamed his son for his wife's death. Given the givens I think John did a great job in raising his kids even if Sam and Dean have emotional scars. I mean is it possible, even growing up under in the best conditions to not have emotional baggage when it comes to your parents?

[adiafaith]

...I watched ep14 Nightmare. The brothers meet Max, whose mother it turned out was burnt alive by the same thing that killed Sam and Dean's mum. Only Maxes Dad started drinking heavily and abusing/beating his son after that. Max uses his newfound telekinetic abilities to kill his father and uncle (who participated in the abuse) and the brothers prevent him from killing his stepmohter. Max goes on to kill himself... It really touched me and it sheds very positive light on John Winchester, when Sam said towards the end of the episode that if John had a little more tequila and a little less demon hunting the brothers might have had Maxes childhood.

I liked this scene 'cause, for me, it was Sam recognizing that his father wasn't totally bad and could've been a lot worse. I always felt like Sam was really hard on John, harder than he should've been. John wasn't great but he wasn't the worst parent to ever exist...so it was nice to see Sam realizing that. Even in the scenes (from other episodes) where Sam begins to acknowledge that he wasn't so innocent in his fights with his dad were great.

[JdsgirlBev]

Adia, I have to disagree with you here "...there's nothing that's been said proving that John was doing it all by himself." There has been nothing said proving that John wasn't doing it all by himself. But there has been a fair bit implied by various sources that John WAS doing it all by himself.

And no, I quite agree that SIMPLY the fact of changing diapers and feeding doesn't make a good parent. It's what it implies. John could have just left the boys behind. He would have had a lot more free time to hunt and to be a free agent with no claims on his 'off' time. That he didn't do that, that he chose the harder role implies that he cared more about them than himself. Or at least it does to me!

The man in Home was Mike Gunther, John's partner in the garage in Lawrence. This is the man who told John he was 'phoning in' his work, just days after Mary was murdered. This is the man who said John had gone crazy because John insisted that he SAW what he SAW...this is also the man called Social Services on John when John tried to tell him that his family was still in danger.

Have you read the early entries in John's journal? This is a fantastic site for detailed info about the show, and the journal entries are over there somwhere: "http://winchester-journals.net".

John did answer Dean's call. In Home John was at Missouri's house. He was ACHING to see his kids again. But he knew that if he did that, he was going to be exposing them to horrible danger because the demon was already on John's tail...it would have been selfish and self indulgent to lead the demon right to Sam.

At the end of the next episode, Asylum/beginning of Scarecrow, John does call them and talks to Sam, telling him how sorry he was about Jess, and that he would have done anything to protect Sam from that. He says "Even us talking right now, it's not safe." NOT SAFE FOR DEAN AND SAM. And he's right... in that episode Meg shows up for the first time. I doubt it's co-incidence, since she is clearly after Sam.

In Shadows, Meg clearly states that the boys have been USED to lure John into a trap... because they are his WEAKNESS, he lets his guard down around 'his boys'.

[adiafaith]

There has been nothing said proving that John wasn't doing it all by himself. But there has been a fair bit implied by various sources that John WAS doing it all by himself.

Well on the website http://winchester-journals.net/equip...rnal/index.php John writes in one of his journals that he's getting help taking care of the boys from Mike and Kate. Plus, from his journal entries you can see how messed up he really is over the whole thing: unable to sleep, going to the police, constantly agonizing over how the fire actually started, and drinking to try to get himself to sleep. At one point Mike suggests he go to a shrink to get himself together for his boys sake.
Btw and on a total side note: I loved reading that Dean climbed into Sam's crib every night and was sleeping with him, his arms around him to protect his brother. It's the image I think I've had of those two (because I just wanted to believe that was the way things were) so it was nice to read it.

But I do agree with you: John could've just left his kids behind. But he didn't. And for that, I do respect him and say again, he really did love his boys and he really did have the best intentions. But I can also imagine how hard it must have been on his boys being dragged all over the country, staying by themselves in motels, while their father went out to fight evil.

And for John seeing his boys...I always got the impression in the Home episode that John might have been in Missouri's house while the boys were there. It was based on the comment she made about why Sam couldn't sense John's presence but he could sense Mary's. That always made me think that he'd maybe been there, possibly in another room, or somewhat close by.

And I like that he called them but...he could've called sooner. Either way, it wasn't safe for him to be in contact with his boys so calling when Dean tells him he needs him or waiting a while after that wasn't going to change the danger they were in. I just feel like if your son is pleading with you to help him that you at least try to reach out to him....I feel like John had to have known some way to get in contact with his boys that wouldn't have put them in too much jeopardy.

[JdsgirlBev]

"John writes in one of his journals that he's getting help taking care of the boys from Mike and Kate." Yes, he did....for about 3 weeks.