John Winchester: Loving father or obsessed jerk?

[JdsgirlBev]

Originally Posted by adiafaith

And to your post JdsgirlBev,
I get the impression that John probably took care of the boys right up until Dean became old enough to take on the role of "caregiver" and then he went off on his hunt. I'm not 100% knocking him for that but he really should've been more emotionally present when he was around his boys. But, then again, I'm not so sure he was capable of doing that after Mary's death.

OOPS...sorry...I missed responding to this bit

I agree. I think the Striga hunt was probably the second, or maybe third time Dean was left in charge.

But as for being emotionally present around Dean and Sam... we have very little hard evidence for how emotionally available he was. We have to infer that from what we observe. One of the best pieces of evidence, at least for me, is the hug they shared in Shadows. The quality of that hug, the fact that John had tears in his eyes as he hugged them...as did Sam... says that as hard assed as John was in dealing with others, he was a different man when he was with his kids. That hug, I believe would have been MUCH different if John hadn't always been emotionally there for his sons, far more than we have been allowed to see. Remember we are seeing Dean and Sam's memories of what their childhood was like, not necessarily an accurate version of it. That the boys have different slants on what kind of a father John was, is a very bog clue that NEITHER one of them is really a reliable guide to the reality of their childhoods with John.

[adiafaith]

I know it was Dean re-telling the story, so it's from his point of view, but I still would've wanted to see a scene with John apologizing (that's one of those fatherly moments I kinda wish to see on the show). I mean, even if they didn't show it, Dean could've said it at the end of telling the story...something like "dad apologized for yelling but he was right to be mad." I would've accepted that because it would've showed a gentler side of John and shown how hard Dean is on himself.

I don't agree that John didn't damage Dean. Yeah, what the YED did had an effect on Sam, Dean, and John. Seeing your mother and your wife on the ceiling in flames would seriously screw anyone up. And Dean having to rescue his brother had to have additionally been traumatic. But the way in which John handled the situation was damaging as well. Dean doesn't deal well with his emotions and I'm not surprised seeing as John probably wasn't dealing well with his feelings over Mary either. I could so see John...probably unable to talk about what that experience was like for him around his sons, keeping his feelings bottled up, drinking his pain away, unleashing his anger vicariously through hunting and killing demons. All of that can be damaging to a child who's trying to cope and then add on that the responsibilities John put on Dean and the fact that John wasn't around much. If you ask me, Sam and Dean are learning to heal through each other, not through John.

The season's not over so I'm gonna keep hoping they bring John back for a fatherly moment. I may hold onto that until the last ep of this series.

And on the last point: I'm not even sure if I wanna delve too much into this because a plot hole may get exposed here. In AHBL pt 1 Sam asks the YED about his mother and he says that it was just bad luck. That she was in the wrong place at the wrong time and that it was never about her, it was always about Sam. Now, if that's true, then it doesn't explain why the other moms ended up on the ceiling. But I won't go down that road 'cause I don't like plot holes.

Ok...to the posts I missed:

I think John could have done more to make Dean feel better as a person. Maybe he didn't know how to deal with it...and I think if John hadn't been so obsessed with killing the YED then Dean could have had an identity outside of being Sam's guardian.

Definitely agree. Your parents are supposed to be the ones that help you find your identity. The way they raise you usually determines how you view yourself. I see Dean as someone who doesn't truly value himself outside of his role as Sam's protector, which reflects on the way John treated him. And maybe John didn't know how to make Dean feel better as person, but here's where I think a good father would've tried to learn how.

I don't know what John knew about the demon at that point, but certainly he knew if something came after his wife, there was probably a reason and that his kids weren't safe either. Dean had to understand the importance of having his brother's back very young and very fast because the stakes were too high

Yeah, that apology thing still irks me. I agree and I guess if John had taught this to Dean and not put all this other pressure on Dean, it'd be reasonable. But like you said, Dean had so much weight on him. John was throwing everything at him and really, as risky as things may have been, Dean should've still had the opportunity to be a child without the weight of the world on him.

And I hear what you're saying JdsgirlBev in regards to the hug, but I looked at that hug differently. They'd been on the road for months searching for their father and dealing with all this dark stuff. At a certain point, the question arose as to if their father was even still alive (by Sam, at least). So in the moment, seeing their dad, it was almost like they were so happy to see each other and to know that they were all okay. But, for me, that doesn't change the fact that Dean struggles to deal with his emotions...which, imo, is a result of John not being emotionally available.

[JdsgirlBev]

Yes, I totally agree John 'damaged' Dean, he admitted as much in IMToD. I think he knew to a greater or lesser extent that he was damaging Dean, even as he did it. I'm not trying to claim that John wasn't a damaged, hard, violent, and dangerous man. He was all of those things. But given the choice between a damaged child, and an ALIVE child, John was going to go for alive every time.

I posit that John had little choice but to damage Dean. John was fighting a war after all. Alone. With two small children in tow. A war against an enemy that could take the outward form of John's best friend, a policeman, Dean or Sam's teacher, a clerk at the store where Dean bought candy, a priest... anyone and everyone was a potential lethal enemy. John had to teach Dean that at a very early age. That's just one way that John did damage Dean. Did he have a CHOICE? I don't think so...but that's me.

[adiafaith]

You know, we don't know a lot in terms of John's own family background. And we also don't know when he entered the military. I think those two things are important to better understanding John and why he's the way he is. I mean, he was definitely all of the things you said he is (damaged, hard, violent, and dangerous) but how'd he get that way? I'd say his background played a role in the way he was and also affected the way he dealt with Mary's death.

And I gotta believe that John didn't intentionally set out to damage his kids (because then that really knocks my whole he had good intentions theory out the park!). But somewhere along the way he had to realize the affect it was having on them (before he finally said it in IMTOD). Maybe when they were teens, maybe when Sam and him really started battling each other...but before they became adults, I gotta think John knew the damage he had caused and was causing.

And yeah, I don't really think he had much choice. I mean, knowing the YED's plans for Sam and knowing what was out there, he had to get his sons ready for the war. But I gotta say, if he was gonna get his kids geared up and ready to take on demons, he definitely should've stepped up the fatherly side too (letting his kids know he loved them, that he'd be there for them...letting them know how important and special they were to him). He definitely needed to do that to balance out the fight mentality he was instilling in them.

[sher1]

i just think he was one HOT obsessive father
that wanted to hunt down & kill the things that killed his wife

[JdsgirlBev]

If it isn't against THIS forum's rules, let me paste a link to my forum's discussion of John: http://jdsgirlbev.proboards55.com/in...ead=1202616197

This discussion about John as a father is four pages long, and it tries to examine John fairly. Meimei42, there's lots of things to consider there.

Here http://dodger-winslow.livejournal.co...87.html#cutid1 are several Metas about all three Winchesters, John included. There's a LOT of text there in those two links... if you want to take a look and see. Any panel discussion of John that you have at Eyecon, will certainly benefit from even a casual read. (the fic is incredible too)

[meimei42]

LOL I made the girl running the panel take me off (because she wasn't a very nice person and was really snobby towards me and I just didn't want her ruining my weekend). Anyway, I may print off some of the stuff and give it to the girls who are on the panel.

I'll respond to this thread later. Work, layoffs, being careful and all that jazz LOL.

[JdsgirlBev]

Originally Posted by meimei42

LOL I made the girl running the panel take me off (because she wasn't a very nice person and was really snobby towards me and I just didn't want her ruining my weekend).

EXCELLENT plan! People like that? Tick me off.

I'll respond to this thread later. Work, layoffs, being careful and all that jazz LOL.

Ah yes, that thing called real life

[meimei42]

John to me is a man who would have been a very different person had the events of his life not taken such a drastic turn. We get a small glimpse of Sam and Dean's life had their mother not died, but we don't really get to see John much and I would have liked to see that.

To me John was no where near a perfect father. He was barley adequate father, but I think there is more to the story than we see. I'm not sure, were I in his place, I'd be any more balanced than him. Sam and Dean grew up knowing about monsters and things that go bump in the night. John's whole world was rocked by one night and its something he never recovered from. I think it affords him a little slack.

It doesn't make up for what he did though. Sure, Dean is messed up because of the events of that night and ultimately one could say the YED is to blame for all that, but that fact of the matter is, Dean was four when he lost his mom and he was four when he lost the dad he once knew. John turned into a totally different person who I don't imagine was in any kind of place mentally to be a father for a long time. He could feed and dress his kids, find them a place to stay, but be there for them emotionally? I'm not so sure about that. At least not at first.

I have this picture in my head of John coming in from a hunt, pretty beat up and Dean getting the ice pack and helping him to set his shoulder back or whatever John needed. I picture Dean as the parent in this relationship. He's the responsible one, which makes sense why in his adulthood he is so reckless and shys away from responsibility (except when it has to do wit the hunt, sam or his car).

Its hard to say exactly what kind of father John was from just the few clips and comments the boys make. The best way to look at it is how his kids turned out. Sam because a mimi version of his father who only needs to right trigger to turn into the obsessed man John once was. I imagine thats part of the reason Sam couldn't stand his father was because they were so much alike but going in opposite directions.

Dean is this emotionally stunted guy who I think longs for normalacy but doesn't feel he deserves it. He's got this chip on his shoulder that makes him feel worthless except when he takes up the role of protector. Everything about him that he loves are things his father loves. Maybe because he wanted to be like his father or impress his father, but whatever the reason for his love for these things, its turned into his identity, even if he still recognizes it as his fathers deep down.

How did John make his kids this way. Even with one parent dying so tragically, kids don't just turn out like this. I think Dean bore the brunt of the emotional damange. Not because John hated him or loved Sammy more, but because Dean can remember the most critical times for John and because Dean didn't have his own umbrella of a brother to protect him.

I feel like I'm babbling and not making sense LOL.

[adiafaith]

Definitely not babbling.

I would've wanted to see what John was like in WIAWSNB ep too. I mean, we knew he was on like a softball team and all (and most likely not hunting) but a glimpse of how he was with his kids would've definitely been nice to see.

For Dean, he saw his mom die when he was a kid. He saw her on the ceiling in that fire and I don't think that's an image he'd ever be able to get out of his mind. That was gonna be something he always carried with him. But I think John played a pivotal role in how (or really if) Dean would recover from that. The only way he was going to learn how to deal with his emotions over what happened was through his father. John would've needed to be there for Dean and to be able and willing to talk to Dean about what happened. But he didn't do that....most likely because he couldn't....so the Dean we see as an adult is a direct reflection of how John failed as a father. And I'm not sure if I'd have been able to step up and be the ideal parent either in a moment like that, but John owed it to Dean to at least try. Because, once you have kids, it's so not about you and your problems anymore. It's about what's best for your kids.

For Sam, he was too young to remember what happened to his mother but he could see the effect that tragedy had on his dad and his brother. And he could see the way they handled losing someone they loved dearly and, not surprisingly, behaved in the same manner over losing his girlfriend. It's kinda sad because John didn't adequately equip his boys with what they'd need on an emotional level so, as adults, they're both still struggling to deal with their feelings. And that's, at least to me, partly the reason they have such a hard time over the idea of losing each other. They're all each other has, true, but they also never really learned how to deal with loss.

And the pictures you have of John are similar to the images I get of him. I also suspect that he often came in and would drink his problems away and never spoke to Dean about their mother. And I get the image that Dean probably tried once to ask John about it, to talk about it, and John probably exploded at him. So he never brought it up again. I'm guessing that because when Sam mentioned their mother to Dean when they were kids, Dean totally screamed on him not to mention her, almost as if he was reenacting a scenario that had went down with his father.

Everything about him that he loves are things his father loves. Maybe because he wanted to be like his father or impress his father, but whatever the reason for his love for these things, its turned into his identity, even if he still recognizes it as his fathers deep down.

Oh that's so perfectly said. Plus I always felt like Dean wanted so much to be close with his father so he did what his dad wanted him to do and what his dad loved. So when his dad entrusts him with the care of Sam or the car or sends him on hunts, Dean will do it to the best of his ability...almost as if he can't let his father down or fail at the task his dad has given him. And also in his obedience and diligent care he takes in Sam and in the car, he's somehow closer to his father...or at least he is in his head.