What is it with the Dean-aholics??

[candyrose]

Hey Calena!

I've been reading through all these posts, and damn have you girls been busy typing away. These are some long posts, and it's been awhile since I've read such lengthy posts on the forum. Great job, girls. It's really a lot to keep up with, which is why I haven't posted anything, but I do have a few things I will add when I get the time and thoughts together.

[Calena]

Hi candy!

It's really a lot to keep up with, which is why I haven't posted anything, but I do have a few things I will add when I get the time and thoughts together.

I'm looking forward to it!

[GuardianAngel1]

Originally Posted by Calena

Hi candy!


I'm looking forward to it!

Hey ladies...don't forget to check out the video I posted as well. I t even has an Evolutionist saying that you can turn anything into anything...like lizards into cows.

[GuardianAngel1]

Originally Posted by Calena

GuardianAngel, I'm not bailing on you, but I spent the whole day with my relatives and just returned home and I'm exhausted. I think it's better I respond tomorrow. You can look forward to the explanation why evolution really doesn't say lizards turn into cows, not even considering the more detailed example you gave.

candy, great clip!

Hey Cal, don't worry about it. I'm actually quite relieved that you aren't just randomly answering questions just to get a reaction. If you were, the conversation would be pointless, agree?

[candyrose]

Yes, I did check out the video you posted, which is part of the reason why I haven't responded yet. I am still digesting everything. I will say this, though: Whoever edited the video sure did a great job of magnifying all their blunders.

[Calena]

Hey Cal, don't worry about it. I'm actually quite relieved that you aren't just randomly answering questions just to get a reaction. If you were, the conversation would be pointless, agree?

Sure I agree. And if I just wanted a reaction for the sake of it, I could always go to the Prison Break section and say that Sara’s return sucks.

Regarding the clip you posted: I got only half way through it with my first try to watch it: I will give it another try later. You realize all it does is taking scientist’s quotes out of context? One would think Creationists who have god on their side would play fair.

Great! I'm glad. I also have a hard time tearing myself away from this to do anything else.

Real life sometimes really gets in the way of interesting online things, doesn’t it?

I do indeed. I know where this is going and so I will explain a little further. I believe that God has a plan and had a plan from the very beginning, but because He granted us free will, He also knows the outcome of every possible decision, and therefore, it was made possible for us to reject His plan.

That makes no real sense. He must know not only the outcome of every possible decision, but how every person will decide on everything. Therefore he could adjust his plan according to our decisions, but if god is all knowing and all powerful he can’t have made a plan that needs correction.
If he can’t tolerate suffering around him and therefore had to cast us out into this cruel world (I believe you made that point somewhere) doesn’t that say about god that he is a) a wuss and b) really not a nice person, he’s acting on the “out of sight – out of mind” school of thought?
If it was his plan to give us free will he must have known it would cause suffering – again, not what one would expect from an all good god.
Fave examples of mine are are Isaac (probably his name is spelt differently in English) and Job. How can a good god ask Isaac to sacrifice his own son to prove his love to god. God must have known the amount of love Isaac had for him anyway, so it was a pointless, cruel mindgame.
The same with Job. I mean seriously, betting with the devil whether the poor guy would crumble under pressure, one would think god would be above such pitiful pastimes. But god and Lucifer seemed to have a fun time….

Well, I suppose it wouldn't make sense from your POV.

I appreciate it very much that you are capable of trying to see how things might look from my POV. While I really do think that this conversation is great fun and an interesting challenge, I think we both are somewhat limited in the extent we really can get each other, due to our beliefs being polar opposites.
I have no idea how it feels to be a real believer, I only know it must make a huge impact on how you perceive the world (as goes for being an atheist, of course)

I don't believe that marriage is all about having kids, though.

So sex for fun, using contraception, is ok in a marriage? (I assume pre-marital sex is a sure way to go to hell?)

In fact, there are some people who were specifically called to be single so they can remain completely committed to the Lord (1 Corinthians 7:34-35). There are religions which have a strong emphasis on bearing children (i.e. Mormonism) however, there is no scriptural evidence to support the theory that the more kids you have the greater wealth you'll get in heaven.

I’ll take your word for that. Still, having lots of kids makes sense for gaining power here on earth.

Some religions may be about power, but mine is about showing the Love of Christ to the lost, so they can find their way.

OK. I’ll take your word for that again and it sounds nice enough.
So tell me, how does your religious community stand on issues like contraception (should government funds only go to organizations that promote abstinence?), do you guys think Creationism should be taught in school, what about stem cell research?
Isn’t advocating for gays not being able to get married wielding power?

I appreciate the compliment! I would never threaten something as terrible as hellfire on another person, although the reality of it's existence is still there. Hell is not a weapon to trash people with, and in fact it's not intended for us at all - 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

So it’s kind of a last resort for those who really don’t come to their senses in purogatory? Which brings me to another point, if god really doesn’t want anyone to be in hell why did he create hell? I mean he could just accept that some people didn’t believe in him and give them a separate part of heaven, being a good looser, so to speak.
I’m ok with rapists, murderers and so on being in hell (well I don’t believe in it, but you get what I’m saying). But going to hell for not believing in god when you were otherwise a good person, seems to be about childish revenge to me.

His general point was to love others. No matter where they are from.

I realize it’s kind of unfair to make this point, as your special branch of Christianity isn’t to blame: but when you recall all the horrific things, people did in his name (crusade, witch hunting,…) he really didn’t get his point across that well, did he? (I know, free will. But still.)

My God is my Father, not my boss. There is a difference between God wanting His children to grow and learn from their mistakes, and a boss wanting his employees to get their work done correctly. How others perceive things can be a hindrance, or a help based on whether I am willing to learn from my mistakes and admit them as such, or not.

And when I’m hurting someone in the process (he didn’t have free will to decide whether or not he wanted to get hurt) it’s an opportunity to grow for him. Sorry, that doesn’t impress me.

I try not to quote Darwin unless it is necessary.

Very wise of you.

Be my guest! A star does it's best shining at night, as does Faith when it is tested.

Actually a star shines as well at day as he does at night, you just can’t see it. Like science is doing its job constantly even when there are still answers we can’t see.
Do you feel tested in your faith by this discussion? I don’t really think you are, that would be way more than I could ever hope for. I have no illusion of being able to make you really see sense. (no offense meant)

The first scripture is speaking to all nations as a people. He came to bring peace on to us as humans, between men (and women).
The second scripture is referring to His desire to free men from Satan's bondage.

Ok, I think I can accept that – that it’s not a contradiction from a storytelling point of view. Another point that goes to you.

Earth is often referred to as Satan's realm.

See, if I would believe in god I would really be depressed because of having been tossed out by him into Satan’s realm. And all because Eve ate that apple – that wasn’t my fault! Maybe I wouldn’t have eaten it (I highly doubt it, I probably would have asked if I could have a second one. ) But it figures, because religion is about not seeking answers, but with being content with not knowing things. Which works well with the wish of kings and bishops to reign over common folk.
Dawkins explained it this way: Humans are pre-dispositioned by evolution to be religious. Great, ain’t it? Because the cave-men kid who unquestioningly obeyed his mother when she told him not to jump into the wild river got to live and procreate, as opposed to the curious kid who wanted to explore the river, jumped in and died. Therefore natural selection favoured individuals who knew how to unquestioningly obey.

He cannot tolerate evil in His presence, but that is in heaven. We're talking about Earth. He created Satan knowing full well what would happen, but that was another step in the plan. See, there was no way that God could allow us into His presence as imperfect beings, but His desire to be with us prompted a plan. His son's death on the cross was the way out for us, a way for us to be able to be with Him. Satan was a necessary product for that plan to succeed.

It didn’t occur to that all powerful and obviously very lonely being, to create us as perfect beings, so he could tolerate our presence? Wouldn’t that have been much easier than coming up with The Plan?
See, Satan isn’t evil at all, he’s just doing what god wants him to do. So shouldn’t we be all praising Satan for doing such a good job?
Do you think Jesus was brave for doing what he did?

Everyone has their doubts, but the evidence is as clear as crystal to me.

You have evidence for the existence of god? Like what?
And before you ask, no, I can’t disproof the existence of god, I just have very good and tangible reasons for not believing in god.
As a matter of fact you can’t disprove a negative. Like I can’t disproof the existence of your god to me, you can’t disproof the existence of Flying Spaghetti Monster (www.venganza.org) of an Invisible Pink Unicorn or a giant teapot orbiting around earth to me.

If you study the time lines of the Bible, it's pretty clear. Yeah, December 25th, tree, lights, candy canes, presents, hot chocolate...the whole thing.

Nice. I personally love Christmas. It doesn’t get much better than a tree on which chocolates are growing standing in the living room.

Would it grieve you if your kids said they hated you? Doesn't mean you still don't love 'em.

Sure, but unlike god I can’t design any kids that might lay in my future the way I want them to be.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend.

You didn’t offend. I just put it so shortly, cause I’m kind of too lazy to write out the whole evolution thing. But in the long run I fear there’ll be no way around it to me typing it in or finding some webpages for you to read.
BTW, the link to the chart you sent me via pm doesn’t work.

Let me put that a little differently. According to the theory, life started as a single celled organism, closely followed by crustaceans and fish-like organisms, then lizards, then birds, and then mammals. I'm skipping a few steps, but you get the idea. Therefore, if we all evolved from the same thing, then essentially cows cam from lizards..who cam from fish, etc.

“closely followed” is a huge exaggeration. You make it sound like life started at point A (=single celled organisms) went in a straight line over point b (fish-like), over point c (lizards) over point d (birds) and finally to the ending point e (mammals). That’s simply not what evolutionary theory says. You have to picture it not in a straight line, but more like a tree. There is the lowest point and it goes up from there, but not in a straight line, it spreads out into different branches. Lizards are not even mammals, they are on a completely different branch.
I’m reaching the limit of my English here, I don’t know if I’m capable of explaining it understandably.
At some point 2 branches came to exist, one that eventually evolved into a lizard and one that evolved into a cow, but lizards are not the ancestors of cows. And the theory of evolution doesn’t say they are.

It would be difficult for you to insult me at all without deliberately trying to do so .

Good to know. But just wait till I’m telling you the thing that made people suggest to me that I should refrain from the topic of religion here, unless I want to get hurt.

Indeed, I agree that the mind plays tricks, however, the likelihood of that in context with the surrounding fact (i.e. it was not very late, we were not already asleep, not sick, etc.) is pretty slim. Especially considering that the one which visited my sister actually spoke to her.

What did it say?

It (demons have no gender) had the appearance of a grown male but seemed to be made from smoke. Had a voice that sounded like he was sucking on gasoline. My sister was pretty young in her faith at the time and it scared her to death. When it visited me, it was barking up the wrong tree and I sent it packing.

How did you do that? Throw holy water on it, exorcise it? Was it a pretty low level demon or is your expertise in dealing with demons that big?

I have read parts of it. You know, know thine enemy and all that. Enemy in this context is (in my opinion) false teachings, BTW. Not Richard Dawkins.

My mother has recently begun bible study and I bought her some books on how to navigate and interpret the bible. For the same reason you gave I think I’ll read them some time.
You are not convinced by what you read in God Delusion? Everything is explained in rather simple terms (which is good for me, because I didn’t pay as much attention in science class in high school as I now wish I had) and totally reasonable.

Here is where we get into that portion of the discussion that relies on faith and scripture. The Bible begins "In the Beginning there was God..." The beginning it refers to is not the beginning of God, but rather the beginning of time. Therefore God has always existed, because time is a non-relative term to Him. He created time, and therefore, it is difficult for us as humans to imagine something that never had a beginning, but that's simply because we as linear beings cannot comprehend a non-linear God.

Time isn’t like we perceive it to be, scientists say that. He created time, I could accept that, but it still doesn’t explain how god came to be. He always existed isn’t answer I can be content with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calena
So says you. I say different:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CG/CG001.html
(Due to my laziness I'm just giving the link)

Nonetheless, it remains a fact that it was witnessed as a death bed confession that he denied his claims. Some chalk it up to pre-death dementia. I say it's because the guy was scared to death that he was about to meet his maker.

But it isn’t a fact. Lady Hope invented the story to make herself interesting.

Faulty is a relative term, and only God can understand why He created the universe. I say it's to give us something to explore.

Giving the kids something to play with, hm?

Absolutely not. The choice is here on Earth, and I've made mine, and I'll stand by it to the end. If anything I would be grieved that I couldn't meet my Jesus face to face and tell Him I love Him like that.

That’s so far out of my line of thinking I can’t think of something to say to that right now … you kinda rendered me speechless, no mean feat.

I've read it, and I'm still a rock-solid believer in Christ and His Creation.

I could say that proofs you didn’t read it like it should be read then, but that’s a very low level thing to say, so I won’t …

Well, the Bible is meant as instructions for all kinds of people. Man put it together as chronologically, but that doesn't mean that that's the best way to read it.

Would it have been so difficult for god to just tell the guys a way to write the bible so that it could be easier understood?

Yep! I believe in angels and demons. The scripture says that Satan can appear as an angel of light...why? Because he was one. That is pretty much the extent of the creatures that I believe in though (apart from the Trinity and Lucifer), although it would be freakin' awesome if dragons were really around!

Like the cute little one in Eragon! I didn’t like the movie at all, but the little dragon baby was sweeeeeet! And I’d love to meet Elves, they are my fave supernatural creatures when you don’t count vampires as supernatural.
Trinity is an actual creature? No, that can’t be what you meant. Wait, when you say Trinity you mean the Holy Ghost? Isn't Trinity the combination of father, son and holy ghost? A concept, not a creature?

[GuardianAngel1]

Originally Posted by Calena

Sure I agree. And if I just wanted a reaction for the sake of it, I could always go to the Prison Break section and say that Sara’s return sucks.

LOL! Yeah, if you wanted to start a riot!

Originally Posted by Calena

Regarding the clip you posted: I got only half way through it with my first try to watch it: I will give it another try later. You realize all it does is taking scientist’s quotes out of context? One would think Creationists who have god on their side would play fair.

Yeah...the video is by evolutionists. It was a group of evolutionists that set out to prove creationism wrong...and got converted in the process. They show a creationist in there asking some questions, but that all of the creationist in it. Also, seemed to me that they recorded the whole portion of what they were saying and then referred to it later on.

Originally Posted by Calena

Real life sometimes really gets in the way of interesting online things, doesn’t it?

*SIGH* Indeed it does, my friend, indeed it does...

Originally Posted by Calena

That makes no real sense. He must know not only the outcome of every possible decision, but how every person will decide on everything. Therefore he could adjust his plan according to our decisions, but if god is all knowing and all powerful he can’t have made a plan that needs correction.
If he can’t tolerate suffering around him and therefore had to cast us out into this cruel world (I believe you made that point somewhere) doesn’t that say about god that he is a) a wuss and b) really not a nice person, he’s acting on the “out of sight – out of mind” school of thought?
If it was his plan to give us free will he must have known it would cause suffering – again, not what one would expect from an all good god.

You used two key words here. First you said God could adjust His plan. You'd be right, He could, and does. God wants us to find our own way to Him, not manipulate us. The second thing you said was that God can't have made a plan that needed adjusting. Cal, there are only two things that God can't do. He can't sin, and He can't fail. That's it. You might be getting confused with the point where I said He cast Satan out of Heaven...earth was created specifically for us. Satan, and man screwed it up. All one has to is read about the Crucifixion to know that God is no wuss, and nothing is out of His sight. Read this: "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me," even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you." That's Psalm 139:7-12. Would you believe that a murderous, adulterous, liar wrote that? His name was King David.

Originally Posted by Calena

Fave examples of mine are are Isaac (probably his name is spelt differently in English) and Job. How can a good god ask Isaac to sacrifice his own son to prove his love to god. God must have known the amount of love Isaac had for him anyway, so it was a pointless, cruel mindgame.
The same with Job. I mean seriously, betting with the devil whether the poor guy would crumble under pressure, one would think god would be above such pitiful pastimes. But god and Lucifer seemed to have a fun time….

Bravo Cal! You almost got the details all right, except Isaac was the son...Abraham was the father. Now this verse can appear cruel, unless you understand the context. God never intended that Isaac would even be harmed...the angel said "Don't lay a hand on the boy!", and secondly, God wasn't proving to Himself how faithful Abraham was to God, He was proving to Abraham how faithful Abraham was to God. If Abraham had not obeyed God, then the entire nation of Israel would never have been. When God saw that Abraham was willing even to put his own son to death in obedience to Him, he promised Abraham (a man that was previously unable to have children) that an entire nation would be born of him...and it was!
Secondly, God does not wager. Here is a common misunderstanding about the beings of God and Satan. Satan never was, is not, and never will be God's equal. God's power is limitless, Satan's power is very limited. God was showing Satan that he knew Job, and that was a defeat for Satan beyond words. Not only that, but when Job proved Him right, he received twice the blessings he'd ever had! Sacrifice will eventually be required when you serve the Lord, but it is so worth it!

Originally Posted by Calena

I appreciate it very much that you are capable of trying to see how things might look from my POV. While I really do think that this conversation is great fun and an interesting challenge, I think we both are somewhat limited in the extent we really can get each other, due to our beliefs being polar opposites.
I have no idea how it feels to be a real believer, I only know it must make a huge impact on how you perceive the world (as goes for being an atheist, of course)

Cal, You have no idea. When I first began to realize that Hell is a real place, and there are literally thousands of people that will suffer there every day...it impacted my life to a great extent. Let me be clear here, if I miss the opportunity to tell someone about Jesus Christ (whether they accept Him or not) their blood is on MY hands, because it is My responsibility to do so. No one else's.

Originally Posted by Calena

So sex for fun, using contraception, is ok in a marriage? (I assume pre-marital sex is a sure way to go to hell?)

Uhhh, I'll put it this way. Yeah, sex is supposed to be fun, but I don't think that's the point of marriage either, and yes contraception is ok. In fact I am a HUGE advocate for adoption. Pre-marital sex is indeed considered a sin, and any sin if not repented for will get you into Hell. However, being raped is NOT a sin, because their is no choice involved.

Originally Posted by Calena

I’ll take your word for that. Still, having lots of kids makes sense for gaining power here on earth.

I suppose...but God already has all the power...He created everything.

Originally Posted by Calena

OK. I’ll take your word for that again and it sounds nice enough.
So tell me, how does your religious community stand on issues like contraception (should government funds only go to organizations that promote abstinence?), do you guys think Creationism should be taught in school, what about stem cell research?
Isn’t advocating for gays not being able to get married wielding power?

Whoa, one at a time there! LOL! Seriously though, I believe that contraception should be used anytime you are not trying to create a child. I believe that abstinence is the only safe sex, and kids should be taught that. I think that people should have the right to decide for themselves what they believe, but I also think that teaching a theory as fact is wrong. I believe that procreation and adoption are the only means by which people should be created, and I believe that once it is created it should be given the same respect as any other human life...including the right not to be a lab rat.
Advocating for anything that you truly believe in is simply using the freedom that God and soldiers died for.

Originally Posted by Calena

So it’s kind of a last resort for those who really don’t come to their senses in purogatory? Which brings me to another point, if god really doesn’t want anyone to be in hell why did he create hell? I mean he could just accept that some people didn’t believe in him and give them a separate part of heaven, being a good looser, so to speak.
I’m ok with rapists, murderers and so on being in hell (well I don’t believe in it, but you get what I’m saying). But going to hell for not believing in god when you were otherwise a good person, seems to be about childish revenge to me.

Well, that's difficult to say...seeing that I don't believe in Purgatory either. I believe that we get one life, and we get all the chances we are ever going to get to accept Christ here on earth. There is no waiting room for Hell. Understand, earth is temporary. We are essentially eternal beings because we have a soul (thus we are able to go to Heaven or Hell). There are no grey areas with this. You either accept Christ as your savior and go to Heaven or your soul will end up in Hell. Although, Hell was created as eternal torment for Satan...Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." It was not intended for us at all, but we have the choice to follow Christ or Satan. It doesn't matter whether you are a good person here on earth. If you don't believe and accept, then you perish. It's not like God wants us to perish, that's why He went through the suffering that He did on the cross, but unfortunately, that's what happens. Sad, but true.

Originally Posted by Calena

I realize it’s kind of unfair to make this point, as your special branch of Christianity isn’t to blame: but when you recall all the horrific things, people did in his name (crusade, witch hunting,…) he really didn’t get his point across that well, did he? (I know, free will. But still.)

Actually, the crusades were formed by a small group of religious zealots who managed to convince the majority that killing non-Christians was what God wanted...when in fact the Bible clearly states the opposite! Stupid man gets in the way...again.

Originally Posted by Calena

And when I’m hurting someone in the process (he didn’t have free will to decide whether or not he wanted to get hurt) it’s an opportunity to grow for him. Sorry, that doesn’t impress me.

No, but the person you hurt has a huge opportunity to grow stronger...bet that would impress you.

Originally Posted by Calena

Actually a star shines as well at day as he does at night, you just can’t see it. Like science is doing its job constantly even when there are still answers we can’t see.
Do you feel tested in your faith by this discussion? I don’t really think you are, that would be way more than I could ever hope for. I have no illusion of being able to make you really see sense. (no offense meant)

On the contrary Cal, this discussion has indeed stretched my faith, which only makes me stronger! Sense is a relative term as well, I suppose, but I still hold out hope for you!

Originally Posted by Calena

Ok, I think I can accept that – that it’s not a contradiction from a storytelling point of view. Another point that goes to you.

Who's keeping score? Well...besides God...

Originally Posted by Calena

See, if I would believe in god I would really be depressed because of having been tossed out by him into Satan’s realm. And all because Eve ate that apple – that wasn’t my fault! Maybe I wouldn’t have eaten it (I highly doubt it, I probably would have asked if I could have a second one. ) But it figures, because religion is about not seeking answers, but with being content with not knowing things. Which works well with the wish of kings and bishops to reign over common folk.
Dawkins explained it this way: Humans are pre-dispositioned by evolution to be religious. Great, ain’t it? Because the cave-men kid who unquestioningly obeyed his mother when she told him not to jump into the wild river got to live and procreate, as opposed to the curious kid who wanted to explore the river, jumped in and died. Therefore natural selection favoured individuals who knew how to unquestioningly obey.

On this I agree and disagree. Religion is indeed about being content with what others tell you...but Christianity is not about religion, it's about relationship. Knowing about the truth is what it's all about! If Dawkins would get his head out of the clouds he and Jesus might actually get along! We are indeed pre-programmed to worship..and if you think about it everyone worships something (Money, TV, Power, Celebrities), but not because of natural selection. God created us to worship Him, it's a need like eating or breathing. But how we try to fill it is up to us, unfortunately, everything except God will leave an empty feeling. Just because I choose to obey God, does not necessarily mean that I don't question Him sometimes.

Originally Posted by Calena

It didn’t occur to that all powerful and obviously very lonely being, to create us as perfect beings, so he could tolerate our presence? Wouldn’t that have been much easier than coming up with The Plan?
See, Satan isn’t evil at all, he’s just doing what god wants him to do. So shouldn’t we be all praising Satan for doing such a good job?
Do you think Jesus was brave for doing what he did?

Let me clear on this Cal, and hear me out. When I say this is dangerous territory, I mean it. Not between you and me, but between you and an evil you can't fathom. Satan's most powerful weapon is deceit. That is why he is called the father of lies. To believe that he is anything except evil is opening a door to things you really don't want to deal with, and believing that he doesn't exist at all is even more dangerous. You're probably laughing at me by now, but understand that this means life and death on an eternal scale for you in my eyes, and I would be remiss in every sense of the word if I didn't warn you accordingly.
On to brighter things, When God created the garden of Eden, and man, He walked with Adam every day. He talked to Him every day, and even now the Holy Spirit is with us all the time. He knew when He gave Eve free will that she was innocent, and that Satan would do what he does best...deceive. It doesn't mean that He wanted it to be that way, but He wanted us to choose to follow Him because we believe in Him...because we love Him. Eve made a mistake that cost us our purity, and no even though that is not our fault directly, we are responsible for our choices here and now.
I believe that bravery is spelled J.E.S.U.S., if that clears it up for you!

Originally Posted by Calena

You have evidence for the existence of god? Like what?
And before you ask, no, I can’t disproof the existence of god, I just have very good and tangible reasons for not believing in god.
As a matter of fact you can’t disprove a negative. Like I can’t disproof the existence of your god to me, you can’t disproof the existence of Flying Spaghetti Monster (www.venganza.org) of an Invisible Pink Unicorn or a giant teapot orbiting around earth to me.

Yes, I can prove that He exists. I talk to Him, and He speaks with me...He holds me when I cry, He laughs when I laugh, He tells me when I'm in the wrong, and what I should say next. I know Him in a more personal way than you can imagine, with everything. He stands by me every second of the day, and He encourages me to go on when I don't want to. People can say that I'm lying, or that I'm crazy, but honestly I don't care, because if I were to stare down the barrel of a shotgun, or face the earth out of an airplane a mile high, I. Would. Not. Doubt.
You show me a pink unicorn that can do that and I'll eat my computer..with ketchup.

Originally Posted by Calena

Nice. I personally love Christmas. It doesn’t get much better than a tree on which chocolates are growing standing in the living room.

LOL! Gotta love it!

Originally Posted by Calena

Sure, but unlike god I can’t design any kids that might lay in my future the way I want them to be.

No, but you can teach them between right and wrong. The scripture says to train you children in the ways that are right...and they will not stray from it. Looks like God practices what He preaches, eh?

Originally Posted by Calena

You didn’t offend. I just put it so shortly, cause I’m kind of too lazy to write out the whole evolution thing. But in the long run I fear there’ll be no way around it to me typing it in or finding some webpages for you to read.
BTW, the link to the chart you sent me via pm doesn’t work.

Aw poo! Tell ya what, I'll just give you the address and you can type it in, okay?
Here it is:
http://www.west.net/~antipas/readings/readings.html

Originally Posted by Calena

“closely followed” is a huge exaggeration. You make it sound like life started at point A (=single celled organisms) went in a straight line over point b (fish-like), over point c (lizards) over point d (birds) and finally to the ending point e (mammals). That’s simply not what evolutionary theory says. You have to picture it not in a straight line, but more like a tree. There is the lowest point and it goes up from there, but not in a straight line, it spreads out into different branches. Lizards are not even mammals, they are on a completely different branch.
I’m reaching the limit of my English here, I don’t know if I’m capable of explaining it understandably.
At some point 2 branches came to exist, one that eventually evolved into a lizard and one that evolved into a cow, but lizards are not the ancestors of cows. And the theory of evolution doesn’t say they are.

I did say that I skipped a few steps, but correct me if I'm wrong, but all the branches are connected to the same tree, no? Like a family tree...different branches all lead to the same trunk, which means they all came from the same thing...

Originally Posted by Calena

Good to know. But just wait till I’m telling you the thing that made people suggest to me that I should refrain from the topic of religion here, unless I want to get hurt.
What did it say?

Oh, I'm quite sure that you've been told some seriously whacked crap. Here's why...you are a persistent person. People with weak faith are afraid of that. In other words, you intimidate them. Plain and simple.
Sorry, what did what say?

Originally Posted by Calena

How did you do that? Throw holy water on it, exorcise it? Was it a pretty low level demon or is your expertise in dealing with demons that big?

LOL! No, demons in SPN are quite different from the real things. Sure, they do different things to torment people, but they are the same "level". Cal, I don't have to go through all that mumbo jumbo. I understand who I am in Christ...I rebuked in in the name of Jesus Christ and told it to get lost. You've never seen anything move so fast! See, in my religion we believe that we are the adopted children of Christ...as in literally. Which means we are royalty in the spiritual realms. So royalty commands...demon runs like a bat out of..well, you get the idea.

Originally Posted by Calena

My mother has recently begun bible study and I bought her some books on how to navigate and interpret the bible. For the same reason you gave I think I’ll read them some time.
You are not convinced by what you read in God Delusion? Everything is explained in rather simple terms (which is good for me, because I didn’t pay as much attention in science class in high school as I now wish I had) and totally reasonable.

Simple is one thing. True is another. The plan of salvation is as simple as it gets and people still have trouble with that one.

Originally Posted by Calena

Time isn’t like we perceive it to be, scientists say that. He created time, I could accept that, but it still doesn’t explain how god came to be. He always existed isn’t answer I can be content with.

Unfortunately, that is the only answer that is truth. He was. Not "He was a quarter after 10 trillion b.c.", just He was. Like I said, we humans can't understand it, we can either accept it or not. No grey areas.

Originally Posted by Calena

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Originally Posted by Calena
So says you. I say different:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CG/CG001.html
(Due to my laziness I'm just giving the link)

But it isn’t a fact. Lady Hope invented the story to make herself interesting.

Says you...

Originally Posted by Calena

Giving the kids something to play with, hm?

Well, you know...we do Legos...God does Universe.

Originally Posted by Calena

That’s so far out of my line of thinking I can’t think of something to say to that right now … you kinda rendered me speechless, no mean feat.

I would say get used to it, but I'm kinda speechless that you're speechless!

Originally Posted by Calena

I could say that proofs you didn’t read it like it should be read then, but that’s a very low level thing to say, so I won’t …

I'll pretend that you didn't say what you said you didn't say...uhhh...yeah...

Originally Posted by Calena

Would it have been so difficult for god to just tell the guys a way to write the bible so that it could be easier understood?

I suppose...guess God has a mind of His own! Imagine that!

Originally Posted by Calena

Like the cute little one in Eragon! I didn’t like the movie at all, but the little dragon baby was sweeeeeet! And I’d love to meet Elves, they are my fave supernatural creatures when you don’t count vampires as supernatural.
Trinity is an actual creature? No, that can’t be what you meant. Wait, when you say Trinity you mean the Holy Ghost? Isn't Trinity the combination of father, son and holy ghost? A concept, not a creature?

Correct..and not correct. You're right, not a creature, the Trinity is the combination of three real separate beings into one. I'm actually surprised that you know about the Trinity at all! Nice!

P.S. I hope I didn't scare you away with any of this, but I promise that this is the truth as I believe it. If you want, keep the questions coming. I'm lovin it!

[Calena]

You used two key words here. First you said God could adjust His plan. You'd be right, He could, and does. God wants us to find our own way to Him, not manipulate us. The second thing you said was that God can't have made a plan that needed adjusting. Cal, there are only two things that God can't do. He can't sin, and He can't fail. That's it.

Interesting. There are 2 things god isn’t capable of doing, which means he isn’t all powerful after all, doesn’t it?
Assuming that god is all powerful I revert back to my original point and ask you, why does god want us to go to all this useless exercise of finding back to him when he could have made us in a way that wouldn’t have required him to get us away from him in the first place.
Or is god entertained by watching us struggle? The way I’m entertained by watching Dean and Sam struggle? I love them, I wish them to succeed, but of course it would be boring to watch if everything always went their way. If that’s the case it would explain an awful lot of things, but sadly it wouldn’t mean that god is all good.

You might be getting confused with the point where I said He cast Satan out of Heaven...earth was created specifically for us. Satan, and man screwed it up.

So the chronology is this: God created earth for man and then Satan happened to piss him off, so god told Satan to get out of his face and Satan could go and play with man on earth and see what he could do with god’s creation?

All one has to is read about the Crucifixion to know that God is no wuss, and nothing is out of His sight. Read this: "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me," even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you." That's Psalm 139:7-12. Would you believe that a murderous, adulterous, liar wrote that? His name was King David.

I don’t get your point here. God is everywhere? Ok, so? One would expect that, if one believes god created everything and is all powerful … and really noisy. 

Bravo Cal! You almost got the details all right, except Isaac was the son...Abraham was the father.

Damn it, I knew that. Honest mistake, lack of concentration.

Now this verse can appear cruel, unless you understand the context. God never intended that Isaac would even be harmed...the angel said "Don't lay a hand on the boy!",

That’s all super, but the point is Abraham didn’t know that, so for Abraham it felt real – he suffered.

and secondly, God wasn't proving to Himself how faithful Abraham was to God, He was proving to Abraham how faithful Abraham was to God. If Abraham had not obeyed God, then the entire nation of Israel would never have been. When God saw that Abraham was willing even to put his own son to death in obedience to Him, he promised Abraham (a man that was previously unable to have children) that an entire nation would be born of him...and it was!

But why did god have to see that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son, when god already knew that anyway? Hm?
Not to mention how morally wrong it is to be willing to slaughter your child for anyone. It’s barbaric, disgusting and wrong.
[qutoe]Secondly, God does not wager. Here is a common misunderstanding about the beings of God and Satan. Satan never was, is not, and never will be God's equal. God's power is limitless, Satan's power is very limited. God was showing Satan that he knew Job, and that was a defeat for Satan beyond words. Not only that, but when Job proved Him right, he received twice the blessings he'd ever had! Sacrifice will eventually be required when you serve the Lord, but it is so worth it![/quote]
I understand that God and Satan are not equal, because after all God created Satan. All the more baffling that God feels the need to show/proof anything to Satan. Plus one could say that God was playing unfair from the very beginning, because he knew what was going to happen. On the other hand Satan should have known better, after the guy and he had history.

Cal, You have no idea. When I first began to realize that Hell is a real place, and there are literally thousands of people that will suffer there every day...it impacted my life to a great extent. Let me be clear here, if I miss the opportunity to tell someone about Jesus Christ (whether they accept Him or not) their blood is on MY hands, because it is My responsibility to do so. No one else's.

2 thoughts on that:
1) It’s required of you to tell people about your religion, because otherwise you go to hell, and the best case scenario is that you get people to convert to your religion. That’s awfully practical from your religion’s POV, isn’t it?
2a) I’m not so clear on what gets one into hell: If one believes in your god and worships him and tries to live by his rules, but can’t do it 100% due to being human will that get one into hell?
If one believes in a Christian god, just not your variety, will that get one into hell?
You have numerous times said that decision must be made here on earth, and you have no purgatory. That means that last minute remorse won’t do any good, like it does with Catholicism? Is there a point of no return, say if I convert to your religion and live by its rules 5 years before I die, I’m in the clear, but if I convert 3 months before my death, that doesn’t cut it?
2b) I’m sure you have family members or friends who don’t believe in your god or are for another reason eligible for hell. Can you after your death be happy and content in heaven knowing full well, that some of your friends are burning in hell, do you think it serves them right or does your memory get wiped clean so you don’t have to think about it?

Uhhh, I'll put it this way. Yeah, sex is supposed to be fun, but I don't think that's the point of marriage either, and yes contraception is ok. In fact I am a HUGE advocate for adoption. Pre-marital sex is indeed considered a sin, and any sin if not repented for will get you into Hell. However, being raped is NOT a sin, because their is no choice involved.

That is a pretty reasonable stance for a religion. You can take that as a compliment.

I think that people should have the right to decide for themselves what they believe, but I also think that teaching a theory as fact is wrong.

See my explanation later in this post for what theory means as a scientific term.

I believe that procreation and adoption are the only means by which people should be created, and I believe that once it is created it should be given the same respect as any other human life...including the right not to be a lab rat.

You are aware that some accumulation of cells in a womb does not equal human life? (no idea what the correct scientific English term is). Stem cells are not human life.
A fly has about 100 000 brain cells, so by killing a fly you inflict more suffering than by doing research on early accumulation of cells.

Advocating for anything that you truly believe in is simply using the freedom that God and soldiers died for.

Soldiers of some country died for people NOT having the right to express their opinions … but that leads away from the religious discussion and as there is so much yet to answer I’ll leave that for another time.

It was not intended for us at all, but we have the choice to follow Christ or Satan. It doesn't matter whether you are a good person here on earth. If you don't believe and accept, then you perish.

And that doesn’t seems neither reasonable nor fair to me.

It's not like God wants us to perish, that's why He went through the suffering that He did on the cross, but unfortunately, that's what happens. Sad, but true.

But the suffering on the cross didn’t really work, because there are still people going through hell.
Wait a minute, are you saying that since god came up with the great plan of crucifying Jesus, which was necessary for humans to be able to get to heaven, no one before Jesus sacrifice was able to get into heaven? If that’s not what you are saying, why did it work without Jesus before?

Actually, the crusades were formed by a small group of religious zealots who managed to convince the majority that killing non-Christians was what God wanted...when in fact the Bible clearly states the opposite! Stupid man gets in the way...again.

Stupid and power hungry. I don’t think it didn’t take a whole lot of convincing, there were fortunes to be made, after all.

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