S3E12: Hell or High Water Discussion

joeyjoejoe · 02-11-2008, 07:37 PM

Well it's been over for 4 minutes now, so I guess I should get this party started. I thought it was good (8/10), but it only felt like half an episode to me. The pace didn't quite feel right.

I think we generally accepted that there was a second escape plan. I was surprised by two elements of it. One, just how bright it was outside when Lechero, T-Bag, and Bellick broke out, only an idiot wouldn't have seen them. In hindsight, I think Michael knew that there wouldn't be enough darkness for them to get out without a significant distraction. My thought was he would pull most of the guards into the facility to give the four of them enough cover to leave on the outside. Second, the trucks in No Man's Land. I am wondering if Michael knew they would bring trucks in, as it seems they would have had NO chance of escaping if the trucks hadn't been there. I think the four got lucky on that one.

I thought T-Bag would turn on them before they even had a chance to coerce Bellick into telling them how they got out into No Man's Land. I think that for the first time in the show, he was REALLY scared. Should play out to be interesting. I was actually more surprised that nobody died, but I shivered when Lechero got shot. That was intense. The Bellick/T-Bag interrogations were interesting. I was afraid they had beaten Bellick to death when he blacked out, but it seems he is in next week's episode as well. T-Bag's line about the refried beans was great, I think that's the hardest I've laughed this season. Boo on turning on Sucre......but if T-Bag is the reason Sucre gets turned into a dead sand angel I will be really pissed. I've never wanted him to die so much as when I saw him point at Sucre, and when he laughed when the general brought in the picture of Fernando Sucre. Grrr.....

To put the icing on the cake, T-Bag found the bird book. I swear, they are giving him all these good things in the show on purpose, just to piss us off. I think it's a commentary on something more, that nobility is not rewarded as it should be in the real world....something like that.

It was good to see all of the elements of the escape from earlier in the season. The cooler had portable oxygen tanks, the cabin's importance (as well as the recorded gunfire's) came into full view here as well. Brilliant on Susan's part to put a tracker on Whistler, man I did not see that coming at all. No resolution for McGrady either, I wonder if he will get a happy ending or not. Someone in this show has to get away for good, it might as well be the endearing one. The introduction of the father earlier in the season makes sense to me now too, and maybe in his father's goodness McGrady will find redemption, even if he gets recaptured.

The ending had me confused more than anything. Whistler had faked breaking his ankle (and I'm sorry smiley, that doesn't bode well for us) to try to get away. What does bode well for us is that Whistler lost his book, and that he seemed pretty concerned about it. I had wondered if that was why he wanted to leave at the end, because he knew he had no power anymore over the negotiation. The order is important: first he fakes the leg break, then he notices he lost the book. That's gonna be what's eating away at me until next week. I'm trying to discern fear of the Company from devious intent.

P.S. -- What will be so unbelievable next week? Is a principal going to die, or another return from the grave?

candyrose · 02-11-2008, 07:53 PM

Why did you move your post??
I really liked the interaction between McGrady and Mikey....he almost took over the role of older brother...or at least that's what it reminded me of. I really hope he gets away, but it doesn't look like he will.....
Mikey sure didn't seem too concerned about Linc pointing a gun at Mahone. He hesitated to say anything....he kinda just stood there...like he was waiting for it to happen. I would have thought by now he would see the position Mahone was put in...and that it wasn't much different than the one he has been in.

Yes, I caught on to the fake broken ankle as well....oh Smiley is not going to like us for this one!!! First, just the thought of a lovely ankle being broken...and then the idea that he faked it....she'll never believe us...she'll come up with some excuse.
It's obvious there is more to this book than he lets on...In a previous episode when asked what was in it...he said the coordinates among other things.....

joeyjoejoe · 02-11-2008, 08:01 PM

Formatting, it was in one big chunk.

I caught that too.....I don't think Michael knew what Linc was doing. Both of them were clearly conflicted, they hated Mahone for killing their father but didn't want anything else to rest on their consciences. When Mahone was running down the stairs Linc had a clear chance to shoot and didn't, and I think that's all we need to know. It was put in there for Whistler to have an escape avenue, I don't think Linc would have gone through with it anyways.

There was nothing to be gained except a sense of justice for his father, who was absent from his life for long periods. Aldo Burrows was only in their lives for short periods. It's not the same as someone who had a father figure around all their life and lost them, I think they would feel a deeper loss and pull the trigger faster.

candyrose · 02-11-2008, 08:06 PM

I suppose this is correct, but, then again, there was so much going on....Whistler was more important because he was their bargaining chip....what was going to help them get LJ back....he had to choose. I don't know if Mikey did it just to ease his conscience...I would like to think he has some sort of understanding of the position Mahone was in, even if it hurts. I mean, if he is clearly worried about his conscience...then what about Susan?? When does the killing stop??

Darkgamr · 02-11-2008, 08:08 PM

I now hate Lincoln, after what he was about to do to Mahone. I mean not even giving him the decency of saving the picture of his son. That's cold, and I know Linc would have done the same thing if he was in Mahone's position. And Linc is so full of crap "You shot my dad in the back". Their dad died in a gunfight with Mahone, It wasn't a murder

joeyjoejoe · 02-11-2008, 08:16 PM

I am really wondering about next week's episode. The promo showed Michael with a gun pointed at Susan in some courtyard/plaza and tried to build up that as the main point of the episode. I think you are onto something candy, how do you make the distinction to kill someone once they have taken someone from you? How much of it should depend on the circumstances of the death? (Maybe the writers point is to task us to rethink this!) Aldo Burrows died in a fire fight by Mahone's fire, Sara was killed by Susan because Linc tried to rescue her. Plus the nature of Sara's death was much more visceral, she could have shot her, but chose to behead her and put her head in a box. You remember the outrage in the U.S. after that tape of the beheading of a U.S. civilian in Iraq was put up on the internet? I think the parallels are intentional, they are trying to make us think Susan NEEDS to die for the sense of justice, Mahone doesn't NEED to die. But this is a tricky business......

I think this is intended as an allusion to the death penalty debate. This may be the most "academic" PB episode to date. Brilliant job on the writing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkgamr

I now hate Lincoln, after what he was about to do to Mahone. I mean not even giving him the decency of saving the picture of his son. That's cold, and I know Linc would have done the same thing if he was in Mahone's position. And Linc is so full of crap "You shot my dad in the back". Their dad died in a gunfight with Mahone, It wasn't a murder

Well if someone shoots you in a fire fight, that's murder. Mahone wasn't firing warning shots at them. But I agree with your other point, Linc was being harsh to him. Think of all the grief Mahone has put them through, and if Mahone hadn't shown up in Panama and held Linc prisoner for Michael it would have gone down a little different I think. Remember Linc couldn't shoot Mahone at the end of Season 2 either? They clearly couldn't trust him, but it could be that at the last moment Linc realized Mahone was a father too...and I think a lot of us would have thought a lot less of Linc if he had.

In his two encounters with Susan's goons, Linc shoots the guy the second time, saying he'd learned his lesson. You think maybe Linc was referring to Mahone there too?

ap_magic1 · 02-11-2008, 08:30 PM

overall i think it was the best episode so far. My only tweek would be that when they escaped it suddenly became day time, as if it were 12 noon. The episode would have been much stronger if the sun was just beginning to rise while they were running away, but still be dark outside. Idk my opinion. Maybe they wanted a contrast from season one. Hmm???

joeyjoejoe · 02-11-2008, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ap_magic1

overall i think it was the best episode so far. My only tweek would be that when they escaped it suddenly became day time, as if it were 12 noon. The episode would have been much stronger if the sun was just beginning to rise while they were running away, but still be dark outside. Idk my opinion. Maybe they wanted a contrast from season one. Hmm???

I noticed that, but didn't think of it much. We have no idea how far they had to go to the ocean, they could have been on the run for more than an hour. That probably allowed Whistler to get away with the ole' broken ankle trick.

candyrose · 02-11-2008, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyjoejoe

I am really wondering about next week's episode. The promo showed Michael with a gun pointed at Susan in some courtyard/plaza and tried to build up that as the main point of the episode. I think you are onto something candy, how do you make the distinction to kill someone once they have taken someone from you? How much of it should depend on the circumstances of the death? (Maybe the writers point is to task us to rethink this!) Aldo Burrows died in a fire fight by Mahone's fire, Sara was killed by Susan because Linc tried to rescue her. Plus the nature of Sara's death was much more visceral, she could have shot her, but chose to behead her and put her head in a box. You remember the outrage in the U.S. after that tape of the beheading of a U.S. civilian in Iraq was put up on the internet? I think the parallels are intentional, they are trying to make us think Susan NEEDS to die for the sense of justice, Mahone doesn't NEED to die. But this is a tricky business......

I think this is intended as an allusion to the death penalty debate. This may be the most "academic" PB episode to date. Brilliant job on the writing.

This is a really valid point: Do we have the right to take another's life in the name of justice?? This has always been an interesting, yet touchy and controversial subject. I think it extends to if we have the right to judge others and label them as good or bad...right or wrong...good enough or incompetent. This may sound like a bit of a stretch, but when you really think about it, things correlate. Do our actions throughout life come to define us? Are they representative of who we truly are? It's easy to judge someone looking from the outside, not having been in their shoes. Life isn't so cut and dry and easily explainable--it exists in a haze of mystery...it is always surrounded by more questions than answers. The problem lies not in what we do know...what can be defined as immoral...but how we attempt to answer these questions with our own bias when there is really no room to do so with any truth....it is all subjective in nature...and our own separate discriminations and judgments...our perceptions..greatly distort it

ap_magic1 · 02-11-2008, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyjoejoe

I noticed that, but didn't think of it much. We have no idea how far they had to go to the ocean, they could have been on the run for more than an hour. That probably allowed Whistler to get away with the ole' broken ankle trick.

ya i guess it wasnt a big deal im just too picky with things loll...Also wat would have been great was to do a more secret vanish than a chase. That would be different from season one, and unexpected and cool. For example...Tbag bellick n Lechero get caught n we see michael waiting to go. They interrogate bellick n he spills the beans about michael and the others. When they search it they find nobody ther n then u see michael n the others running through the forest n reaching the ocean while the sun begins to rise. The whole crawling under the trucks didnt do it for me at all...but again...maybe im being to picky about these things haha since i maid very minor changes to the scenario. loll

02-11-2008, 07:37 PM	#1
joeyjoejoe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 396	S3E12: Hell or High Water Discussion Well it's been over for 4 minutes now, so I guess I should get this party started. I thought it was good (8/10), but it only felt like half an episode to me. The pace didn't quite feel right. I think we generally accepted that there was a second escape plan. I was surprised by two elements of it. One, just how bright it was outside when Lechero, T-Bag, and Bellick broke out, only an idiot wouldn't have seen them. In hindsight, I think Michael knew that there wouldn't be enough darkness for them to get out without a significant distraction. My thought was he would pull most of the guards into the facility to give the four of them enough cover to leave on the outside. Second, the trucks in No Man's Land. I am wondering if Michael knew they would bring trucks in, as it seems they would have had NO chance of escaping if the trucks hadn't been there. I think the four got lucky on that one. I thought T-Bag would turn on them before they even had a chance to coerce Bellick into telling them how they got out into No Man's Land. I think that for the first time in the show, he was REALLY scared. Should play out to be interesting. I was actually more surprised that nobody died, but I shivered when Lechero got shot. That was intense. The Bellick/T-Bag interrogations were interesting. I was afraid they had beaten Bellick to death when he blacked out, but it seems he is in next week's episode as well. T-Bag's line about the refried beans was great, I think that's the hardest I've laughed this season. Boo on turning on Sucre......but if T-Bag is the reason Sucre gets turned into a dead sand angel I will be really pissed. I've never wanted him to die so much as when I saw him point at Sucre, and when he laughed when the general brought in the picture of Fernando Sucre. Grrr..... To put the icing on the cake, T-Bag found the bird book. I swear, they are giving him all these good things in the show on purpose, just to piss us off. I think it's a commentary on something more, that nobility is not rewarded as it should be in the real world....something like that. It was good to see all of the elements of the escape from earlier in the season. The cooler had portable oxygen tanks, the cabin's importance (as well as the recorded gunfire's) came into full view here as well. Brilliant on Susan's part to put a tracker on Whistler, man I did not see that coming at all. No resolution for McGrady either, I wonder if he will get a happy ending or not. Someone in this show has to get away for good, it might as well be the endearing one. The introduction of the father earlier in the season makes sense to me now too, and maybe in his father's goodness McGrady will find redemption, even if he gets recaptured. The ending had me confused more than anything. Whistler had faked breaking his ankle (and I'm sorry smiley, that doesn't bode well for us) to try to get away. What does bode well for us is that Whistler lost his book, and that he seemed pretty concerned about it. I had wondered if that was why he wanted to leave at the end, because he knew he had no power anymore over the negotiation. The order is important: first he fakes the leg break, then he notices he lost the book. That's gonna be what's eating away at me until next week. I'm trying to discern fear of the Company from devious intent. P.S. -- What will be so unbelievable next week? Is a principal going to die, or another return from the grave? Last edited by joeyjoejoe : 02-12-2008 at 12:43 AM.

02-11-2008, 07:53 PM	#2
candyrose Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,706	Why did you move your post?? I really liked the interaction between McGrady and Mikey....he almost took over the role of older brother...or at least that's what it reminded me of. I really hope he gets away, but it doesn't look like he will..... Mikey sure didn't seem too concerned about Linc pointing a gun at Mahone. He hesitated to say anything....he kinda just stood there...like he was waiting for it to happen. I would have thought by now he would see the position Mahone was put in...and that it wasn't much different than the one he has been in. Yes, I caught on to the fake broken ankle as well....oh Smiley is not going to like us for this one!!! First, just the thought of a lovely ankle being broken...and then the idea that he faked it....she'll never believe us...she'll come up with some excuse. It's obvious there is more to this book than he lets on...In a previous episode when asked what was in it...he said the coordinates among other things..... Last edited by Drama_Diva : 02-11-2008 at 09:43 PM.

02-11-2008, 08:01 PM	#3
joeyjoejoe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 396	Formatting, it was in one big chunk. I caught that too.....I don't think Michael knew what Linc was doing. Both of them were clearly conflicted, they hated Mahone for killing their father but didn't want anything else to rest on their consciences. When Mahone was running down the stairs Linc had a clear chance to shoot and didn't, and I think that's all we need to know. It was put in there for Whistler to have an escape avenue, I don't think Linc would have gone through with it anyways. There was nothing to be gained except a sense of justice for his father, who was absent from his life for long periods. Aldo Burrows was only in their lives for short periods. It's not the same as someone who had a father figure around all their life and lost them, I think they would feel a deeper loss and pull the trigger faster. Last edited by joeyjoejoe : 02-11-2008 at 08:06 PM.

02-11-2008, 08:08 PM	#5
Darkgamr Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 84	I now hate Lincoln, after what he was about to do to Mahone. I mean not even giving him the decency of saving the picture of his son. That's cold, and I know Linc would have done the same thing if he was in Mahone's position. And Linc is so full of crap "You shot my dad in the back". Their dad died in a gunfight with Mahone, It wasn't a murder __________________ Ummmm...

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02-11-2008, 08:06 PM	#4
candyrose Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,706	I suppose this is correct, but, then again, there was so much going on....Whistler was more important because he was their bargaining chip....what was going to help them get LJ back....he had to choose. I don't know if Mikey did it just to ease his conscience...I would like to think he has some sort of understanding of the position Mahone was in, even if it hurts. I mean, if he is clearly worried about his conscience...then what about Susan?? When does the killing stop??

02-11-2008, 08:30 PM	#7
ap_magic1 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 113	overall i think it was the best episode so far. My only tweek would be that when they escaped it suddenly became day time, as if it were 12 noon. The episode would have been much stronger if the sun was just beginning to rise while they were running away, but still be dark outside. Idk my opinion. Maybe they wanted a contrast from season one. Hmm???