S3E12: Hell or High Water Discussion - Page 2

DramaDiva · 02-11-2008, 09:25 PM

Guys, please try and watch the double posting ....thanks.

I thought it was a good episode although I agree something just felt off about it. I hate that next week is the season finale ...it just seems too short.

joeyjoejoe · 02-11-2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by candyrose

This is a really valid point: Do we have the right to take another's life in the name of justice?? This has always been an interesting, yet touchy and controversial subject. I think it extends to if we have the right to judge others and label them as good or bad...right or wrong...good enough or incompetent.

......

It's easy to judge someone looking from the outside, not having been in their shoes. Life isn't so cut and dry and easily explainable--it exists in a haze of mystery...it is always surrounded by more questions than answers.

......

The problem with Susan is that she shows no remorse in her actions: she kills indiscriminately because it's her job to get a result. Not only do her actions warrant a response, but if she is left alive (and say incarcerated) could we bear the risk of her doing something else that results in the death of another? How many times has she been three seconds away from plunging a knife into LJ's spine? We absolutely have the ability to judge her, we can judge anyone for anything. Whether or not the judgment is warranted or meritous is where the debate is. I believe that she needs to be held accountable for at least three deaths. This is the essence of human drama. I love it!!! You think Michael will hesitate to pull the trigger? I do, but I hopes he pulls it all the same.

Mahone to T-Bag: "If there was any justice in this world, you would be lying face down in a grave with the rest of your inbred family."

You know, this is making me rethink Kellerman too, the scenes where he is torturing Sara in Season 2.

Did anyone else notice that Whistler was at the exchange? Do you think the brothers recapture him? Or does he have a change of heart? Here's a Canadian promo for next week:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D61-r59KhdE

SuperJoe · 02-12-2008, 04:06 AM

I think the 2 most interesting points about the last episode are:
1. I don't think smiley has much to go on with her argument about Whistler being an innocent fisherman when he clearly played Linc and Michael with the broken ankle story then escaped from the exchange point.
2. I think T-Bag could be calling the shots from now on because i don't think the writers would show the book being left behind and T-Bag picking it up if it weren't going to be important. So i think in order for the Company to get what they want from Whistler they will need that book so they will probably have to co-operate with T-Bag and help him escape also. Put this together with most people's beliefs that T-Bag will take Lechero's place as ruler of Sona and T-Bag could be in a pretty strong position.

Calena · 02-12-2008, 04:44 AM

The broken ankle thing: As opposed to you all, I think that he was so afraid of being given over to Susan without the book could actally be a hint that Whistler is indeed an "innocent" fisherman. Innocent meaning, that he indeed got himself into working for the Company very naive, without really knowing what it all was about. I still don't believe it, but the fake broken ankle thing does prove that he is not high in hierachy of the Company, but is afraid of them. I don't know anything about navigation, but is it really so hard to figure out and once you have figured them out, to memorize coordinates? Seems a bit strange to me, maybe there's something else behind all this than just the coordinates.

First thing I thought when Whistler "hurt" his ankle: smiley's going to be soooo sad when she sees this!

Daddy McGrady came to the rescue! Finally a good deed Michael did paid off.
Poor Sucre!

What will T-Bag do with the book? Hand it over to the guards for privileges? Somehow contact Michael to let him know he has it?
I'm definitely looking forward to see T-Bag rule Sona.

I too found it odd, that after the break out it was high noon in the next scene, but yes, the could have been on the run for a while.

Such a a shame that we get only one more episode!

Guybrush · 02-12-2008, 05:26 AM

'I know less than you do, which is hard considering how dumb you are' i did have a chuckle at that.

Thought that was a really good episode, the start where the 3 that went first got caught, theres a story from many many years ago (i wasnt around when this story was about before you say anything

). how greed and putting yourself before others makes you come away with nothing. Might have been a bible story. Which proves Greed gets you nowhere, or in their case, Greed gets you back into Sona.

I would say he tore his ankle ligaments rather than broke his ankle. He says 'my ankle, ive torn it apart'. I would say whistler needs a lesson in anatomy as hes holding his shin bone, then if you watch he moves one hand down towards his ankle, probably after realising

.

I thought Bellick was a goner, doesnt the officer know the rules though, i didnt see him drop no chicken foot.

does anybody think Sucre is going to end up in Sona? if the guards find out he used that stuff on the fence.

The promo looks good for Episode 13.

If Episode 13 ends with LJ back with Linc, what would the other 9 episodes have been about? (if the strike wasnt on), would this have involved t-bag and that book etc. or where does it go from there.

Im looking forward to the final episode, i just hope the end isnt a disappointment.

candyrose · 02-12-2008, 08:36 AM

Quote:

The problem with Susan is that she shows no remorse in her actions: she kills indiscriminately because it's her job to get a result. Not only do her actions warrant a response, but if she is left alive (and say incarcerated) could we bear the risk of her doing something else that results in the death of another? How many times has she been three seconds away from plunging a knife into LJ's spine? We absolutely have the ability to judge her, we can judge anyone for anything. Whether or not the judgment is warranted or meritous is where the debate is. I believe that she needs to be held accountable for at least three deaths. This is the essence of human drama. I love it!!! You think Michael will hesitate to pull the trigger? I do, but I hopes he pulls it all the same.

I was speaking generally--how we tend to judge people on their actions alone...all while being separated from the circumstances of these actions. And, to a certain degree, I think the show touches on this topic in away that blurs the line between right versus wrong. Yes, at the present moment it would appear that she has no remorse for her crimes...but isn't this the way things appeared when we were first introduced to the K-man and Mahone? The PB guys have done an excellent job of taking of leading us on, only to provide us with twists and turns. As the plot progressed, we were giving an insight into the minds of Mahone and the K-man. Some would have described them as evil, men who had their minds set on killing the brothers simply because it was a part of their job. We then learned that Mahone was stuck in a precarious situation where he had to fend for his own life as well as protect his family. If had not cooperated with the company, he and his family could have easily been killed. This doesn't stray too far from what Mikey has been doing. He has made many sacrifices, yes, but he has also caused so much pain, suffering, and even death as a result of this attempt to save his own family. It's easy to look at him as the victim when he is the one being pursued...hunted, but really he isn't much different than the other guys. We saw the same thing in season one: Mikey is thrown into this prison with a bunch of convicts, presumably bad guys with no conscience...men who deserve to be behind bars. And, again, as the plot progressed, we were given their back stories. We saw that they weren't all merciless killers and rapist; they were simply ordinary men who made bad decisions in circumstances they perceived to be overwhelming. So, this results in the boundary, the line, between Mikey and the other convicts being blurred. As far as Susan goes, we currently don't have enough information to completely and unarguably determine that she is some killing machine with no conscience. For all we know, she could be in the same predicament as the rest of them...if she fails to follow orders, her life could be in danger as well as anyone she is close with. So, essentially, it becomes more about survival than the need to kill. If you look back at the past few episodes, when the brothers kept messing up, you can see that she kept giving them chances. There was a time when the company wanted the operation to be canceled and the brothers to be killed...but she was a bit hesitant about this. She could have killed them, but she didn't. Now this is the point where there is room for argument, being that she has already killed and it is likely that she will do it again.

SuperJoe · 02-12-2008, 09:27 AM

I agree with your point about Susan, candy. Remember in episode 8 Bang and Burn when Susan was speaking to Pad-Man and Pad-Man was threatening Susan to get her to sort out the failed escape attempt in episode 7. Pad-Man said something like " If you don't sort this mess out i will make what happened to you in Mosul feel like a massage " which sort of suggests to me in the way Mahone was taking orders to kill people in Season 2 from the Company in order to protect himself and his family Susan is sort of doing the same and has been doing things like this for the Company in the past. The only problem with this theory is in all the scenes we have seen Susan in she is always threatening people and seems to show no remorse for what she has done.

candyrose · 02-12-2008, 09:48 AM

But isn't that what she is supposed to do?? In the context of the situation, it would make sense to try to appear as formidable as possible. If she comes off as weak, then it's more than possible the brothers won't cooperate and could kill her--no matter what her true intentions may be. And this is especially important for a woman because men perceive woman as more vulnerable and take them less seriously. This makes her an easy target....we saw similar behavior from Caroline...

joeyjoejoe · 02-12-2008, 09:53 AM

I'm kind of sick of using this "...they are put in extenuating circumstances...." nonsense that's used to defend these characters. It's used to weasel them out of any responsibility whatsoever.....like we should feel bad for Susan for being threatened, while Sara's head is in a box somewhere (or maybe it's out of the box now). I feel bad for Sara, not Susan.

I disagree that Susan's motivations should hold more weight in my opinion of her than what she's done. That's what the whole backstory of her in Mosul was about....it was about making us think that she isn't a mindless killer, all the while she is mindlessly killing people. The nature of Sara's death clearly separates her from Mahone, and it's a little more fuzzy for Kellerman.

I still don't forgive Mahone for killing Tweener. I don't get why people make excuses for Susan. $%#@ her.

SuperJoe · 02-12-2008, 09:57 AM

Yeah i agree with that candy because if Susan showed an emotional and compassionate side the brothers would just play games with her and not even take her seriously. With so many questions to answer such as: What is Whistler all about? What is Susan all about? What will happen to Mike, Linc and LJ? What will T-Bag be like as ruler of Sona and what will be the significance of him being in possession of the bird book? What will happen to Sucre when he is probably thrown into Sona? I just feel that they can't cram all the answers and an ending to Prison Break into 1 episode and there must be remaining episodes or a 4th season. Or is it just hope?

02-11-2008, 09:25 PM	#11
DramaDiva Moderator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 13,931	Guys, please try and watch the double posting ....thanks. I thought it was a good episode although I agree something just felt off about it. I hate that next week is the season finale ...it just seems too short. __________________

02-12-2008, 04:44 AM	#14
Calena Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Old Europe Posts: 7,896	The broken ankle thing: As opposed to you all, I think that he was so afraid of being given over to Susan without the book could actally be a hint that Whistler is indeed an "innocent" fisherman. Innocent meaning, that he indeed got himself into working for the Company very naive, without really knowing what it all was about. I still don't believe it, but the fake broken ankle thing does prove that he is not high in hierachy of the Company, but is afraid of them. I don't know anything about navigation, but is it really so hard to figure out and once you have figured them out, to memorize coordinates? Seems a bit strange to me, maybe there's something else behind all this than just the coordinates. First thing I thought when Whistler "hurt" his ankle: smiley's going to be soooo sad when she sees this! Daddy McGrady came to the rescue! Finally a good deed Michael did paid off. Poor Sucre! What will T-Bag do with the book? Hand it over to the guards for privileges? Somehow contact Michael to let him know he has it? I'm definitely looking forward to see T-Bag rule Sona. I too found it odd, that after the break out it was high noon in the next scene, but yes, the could have been on the run for a while. Such a a shame that we get only one more episode! __________________ Another great sig by helps! ( I love you! I am your devoted ZANY!) Check it out, my first blog entry ever, on Crazy_Buckets: http://thedailybucketsofcrazy.com/20...girl%E2%80%9D/ Take a look: http://rocksaltwarrior.com/

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02-12-2008, 04:06 AM	#13
SuperJoe Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 41	I think the 2 most interesting points about the last episode are: 1. I don't think smiley has much to go on with her argument about Whistler being an innocent fisherman when he clearly played Linc and Michael with the broken ankle story then escaped from the exchange point. 2. I think T-Bag could be calling the shots from now on because i don't think the writers would show the book being left behind and T-Bag picking it up if it weren't going to be important. So i think in order for the Company to get what they want from Whistler they will need that book so they will probably have to co-operate with T-Bag and help him escape also. Put this together with most people's beliefs that T-Bag will take Lechero's place as ruler of Sona and T-Bag could be in a pretty strong position.

02-12-2008, 05:26 AM	#15
Guybrush Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 14	'I know less than you do, which is hard considering how dumb you are' i did have a chuckle at that. Thought that was a really good episode, the start where the 3 that went first got caught, theres a story from many many years ago (i wasnt around when this story was about before you say anything ). how greed and putting yourself before others makes you come away with nothing. Might have been a bible story. Which proves Greed gets you nowhere, or in their case, Greed gets you back into Sona. I would say he tore his ankle ligaments rather than broke his ankle. He says 'my ankle, ive torn it apart'. I would say whistler needs a lesson in anatomy as hes holding his shin bone, then if you watch he moves one hand down towards his ankle, probably after realising . I thought Bellick was a goner, doesnt the officer know the rules though, i didnt see him drop no chicken foot. does anybody think Sucre is going to end up in Sona? if the guards find out he used that stuff on the fence. The promo looks good for Episode 13. If Episode 13 ends with LJ back with Linc, what would the other 9 episodes have been about? (if the strike wasnt on), would this have involved t-bag and that book etc. or where does it go from there. Im looking forward to the final episode, i just hope the end isnt a disappointment.

02-12-2008, 09:27 AM	#17
SuperJoe Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 41	I agree with your point about Susan, candy. Remember in episode 8 Bang and Burn when Susan was speaking to Pad-Man and Pad-Man was threatening Susan to get her to sort out the failed escape attempt in episode 7. Pad-Man said something like " If you don't sort this mess out i will make what happened to you in Mosul feel like a massage " which sort of suggests to me in the way Mahone was taking orders to kill people in Season 2 from the Company in order to protect himself and his family Susan is sort of doing the same and has been doing things like this for the Company in the past. The only problem with this theory is in all the scenes we have seen Susan in she is always threatening people and seems to show no remorse for what she has done.

02-12-2008, 09:48 AM	#18
candyrose Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,706	But isn't that what she is supposed to do?? In the context of the situation, it would make sense to try to appear as formidable as possible. If she comes off as weak, then it's more than possible the brothers won't cooperate and could kill her--no matter what her true intentions may be. And this is especially important for a woman because men perceive woman as more vulnerable and take them less seriously. This makes her an easy target....we saw similar behavior from Caroline...

02-12-2008, 09:53 AM	#19
joeyjoejoe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 396	I'm kind of sick of using this "...they are put in extenuating circumstances...." nonsense that's used to defend these characters. It's used to weasel them out of any responsibility whatsoever.....like we should feel bad for Susan for being threatened, while Sara's head is in a box somewhere (or maybe it's out of the box now). I feel bad for Sara, not Susan. I disagree that Susan's motivations should hold more weight in my opinion of her than what she's done. That's what the whole backstory of her in Mosul was about....it was about making us think that she isn't a mindless killer, all the while she is mindlessly killing people. The nature of Sara's death clearly separates her from Mahone, and it's a little more fuzzy for Kellerman. I still don't forgive Mahone for killing Tweener. I don't get why people make excuses for Susan. $%#@ her.

02-12-2008, 09:57 AM	#20
SuperJoe Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 41	Yeah i agree with that candy because if Susan showed an emotional and compassionate side the brothers would just play games with her and not even take her seriously. With so many questions to answer such as: What is Whistler all about? What is Susan all about? What will happen to Mike, Linc and LJ? What will T-Bag be like as ruler of Sona and what will be the significance of him being in possession of the bird book? What will happen to Sucre when he is probably thrown into Sona? I just feel that they can't cram all the answers and an ending to Prison Break into 1 episode and there must be remaining episodes or a 4th season. Or is it just hope?