About the finale & Michael's death..

[Sonny]

Believe me Drama, I wish Michael had never gone to FR to free Lincoln. No stupid Lincoln who can´t stay out of trouble, no Michael who saves him.

[JamesDaTruth]

Originally Posted by DramaDiva

TBag is kinda like a dog, or animal if you will. He works almost solely on instinct. TBag doesn't think he just does. Why so you think he was always in so much trouble? He acts on instinct. My dog knows what's right and wrong. She knows not to pee in the house and that getting in the trash will get her in trouble. The only time she would attack someone is if they were attacking me or my family....so how is TBag different from a dog again ? You always choose to pick at the TBag parts of my statements . You wanna know why ? Because you know you can't prove that it's not Mikes fault.

How is T-bags actions Michaels fault? Sure Micheal helped him escape from prison, but did he have a choice? If your saying Michael is at fault for what t bags done then wouldn't sarah be the one responsible because she left the door open in the first place? I just proved its not Michaels fault. You say its Instinct for t bag to kill and rape people? Im sorry but that IS considered insane.He may know right from wrong but if he has an uncontrollable urge (instinct as you call it)to rape and kill then he cannot be held responsible for his own actions and thus would be declared insane. You use your dog for an example, How was he raised to be a fighter or to be a pet? yeah I thought so a pet. T-bag was raped as a child by his father thus being raised to believe that is how life was. So the blame is on his father on that one.

As far as these ****ty examples Ive read so far how bout this one...
Its in a cats nature(instinct) to kill mice and birds. they do not do it because they are hungry, they have food inside, they like toying with their prey. Is the cats owner at fault because the cat likes to kill birds and mice? I didnt think so. (you might say "dont let the cat outside then" so why was T-bag let out into gen pop where he could rape inmates and make them commit suicide?)
Also dont act like T-bag didn't have victims inside the prison walls. Remember the C-O he shanked? that was Michaels fault too? Michael told him not to kill the C-O but T-bag did anyways, hmm see what Im getting at yet? What about that kid that he raped until he committed suicide?Thats michaels fault too? the kid asked for help and Michael confronted T-bag. T-bags actions continued... Starting to sink in?
If a dog is abused as a pup 90 out of 100 times the dog will be violent in its adult years. Is it the dogs fault or the one who beat the dog? you compare a dog to T-bag, T-Bag is the abused dog, Whos fault are his actions?

get off your high horse we are all wrong sometimes.

[candyrose]

Okay, no need to get defensive. You say it's not Michael's fault and he is in no way responsible, not even the slightest bit. I would say watch some of the old episodes, especially from season 2, and listen to some of the things that come out of Michael's mouth. Michael himself said he felt responsible for what T-bag did and that T-bag should have never been allowed to escape. At the end of season 2, he wanted to fix the mistake he had made by capturing T-bag so he could be turned in to the authorities.

I agree that T-bag is also responsible for his actions and has a choice. However, T-bag would have stayed behind bars if Michael had not allowed him to escape with the rest of the gang. Yes, T-bag did bad things in prison, but there is a difference. Prison is a more controlled environment. It's not as easy to get away with killing someone in prison as it is when one is free and out in the open, relatively safe from imminent punishment and with more weapons at his or her disposal.

[JamesDaTruth]

Yeah, Im not saying Michael didn't feel responsible but even sarah tells him its not his fault when he confides in her.

If I saw a used needle on the ground and I didnt thow it away, someone gets hurt with it, I would feel responsible but its not my fault. People make their own choices and to blame Michael for T-bag your just looking for a scape goat.

And I suggest you re watch season 1 because Michael tried everything in his power to try to not let T-bag escape with him. If you do your best at something but still fail, who will hold that against you?

As for your comment about Prison being a controlled enviorment, If it was so controlled T-bag would be on lock down and never had the chance to escape. Its a controlled enviorment? When they put tweener in with alvacado that was a controlled enviorment? They knew what he would do to tweener.
T-bag would of have victims regardless if he was inside or outside prison so your argument falters there. The C-Os were crooked, If you could pull rank on them you could do what Abruzzi did and get the C-os to look the other way when they cut off muchaels toe. But its still a controlled envoirment? And weapons? Come on you can make a weapon out of the back of a tooth brush.

[ryanxxl]

Ok guys, lets get to the Tbag issue.

As all know, Michael had no choice but to break him out. Yeah but, why?

Ok,I just remember that was because he has to free linc who was framed by the company.

By going through indirect ways up the chain of events, the company is definitely the source of the problem the second Terence was killed and they needed a scapegoat.


DramaDiva came up with the causality theory. A Good one but need a proper application.

The CAUSE (Action) : Framing linc for the death of Terence.

The EFFECT"S" (Reactions): All the events that followed...

So plain and simple.

The acts of T-Bag is just the mere indirect result of the first action. You just need to see the whole picture (The Scofield's way of seeing thing. Guys, you really have learnt nothing from the show or what!! lol)


OR Just think about a domino effect. The company induce the fall of the first piece causing the cascade of events. We can say that it's the company which made Michael break in and out Fox River and freeing TBag in the process.

Now, let's broaden our horizon. If linc was not framed, the company wouldn't have been burned to the ground.

How many innocent would have died to protect their project (BARGAIN). Christina could have found an alternative way to get sylla and her cupidity would have led to a war between China and India. Somehow, we could say that her death might have saved thousand of lives.

About our deceased Michael.

A highly emotional ending but I don't buy it. What I've learned from the show is that "things are not as its seems". His dead body was not shown. We only have a grave with his name on it. So...

Likewise, such a smart dude get killed by a massive electric shock. You've got to be kidding me. Some C4 could well have get rid of that door.

Whatever, the show was undoubtedly one of the best of this decade. It Would be hard to outshine this one. Though "Lost", being centered around more than one character, is a good challenger, It Would be hard to outshine this one.

Guess we'll have to wait and see...

[candyrose]

I didn't say it was impossible or that it was a completely safe environment (prison). All I am saying is that out in the real world, there are more opportunities to commit crimes, like murder. Yes, T-bag did a lot of horrible things in prison, but it wasn't as easy for him as it would have been if he had been outside those walls. In prison you have to wait for the right opportunity to arise because of the supervision. You have to have some sort of cooperation from some of the others, who, at times, you may need to help enact your plans. You have to be able to find a weapon or something to use to make a weapon--that takes time and knowing the right people. It isn't like if T-bag got super pissed at someone standing in front of him he could have easily picked up a baseball bat or a knife, sitting there in plain view. These things are not as easily accessible. And even if an inmate kills someone, they still have to rely on other people not to rat him out or they have to make sure that person is taken care of in some way or another. And if it were discovered that the inmate was responsible, they would be in trouble ASAP and be isolated from the rest. It isn't like an inmate has anywhere to run, unless he already has an escape plan in the works. Out in the real world, someone could easily flee the scene, disappear into the crowd, and continue with their killing spree.

[NickyNoodle]

Originally Posted by ryanxxl

Ok guys, lets get to the Tbag issue.

As all know, Michael had no choice but to break him out. Yeah but, why?

Ok,I just remember that was because he has to free linc who was framed by the company.

By going through indirect ways up the chain of events, the company is definitely the source of the problem the second Terence was killed and they needed a scapegoat.


DramaDiva came up with the causality theory. A Good one but need a proper application.

The CAUSE (Action) : Framing linc for the death of Terence.

The EFFECT"S" (Reactions): All the events that followed...

So plain and simple.

The acts of T-Bag is just the mere indirect result of the first action. You just need to see the whole picture (The Scofield's way of seeing thing. Guys, you really have learnt nothing from the show or what!! lol)


OR Just think about a domino effect. The company induce the fall of the first piece causing the cascade of events. We can say that it's the company which made Michael break in and out Fox River and freeing TBag in the process.

Now, let's broaden our horizon. If linc was not framed, the company wouldn't have been burned to the ground.

How many innocent would have died to protect their project (BARGAIN). Christina could have found an alternative way to get sylla and her cupidity would have led to a war between China and India. Somehow, we could say that her death might have saved thousand of lives.

About our deceased Michael.

A highly emotional ending but I don't buy it. What I've learned from the show is that "things are not as its seems". His dead body was not shown. We only have a grave with his name on it. So...

Likewise, such a smart dude get killed by a massive electric shock. You've got to be kidding me. Some C4 could well have get rid of that door.

Whatever, the show was undoubtedly one of the best of this decade. It Would be hard to outshine this one. Though "Lost", being centered around more than one character, is a good challenger, It Would be hard to outshine this one.

Guess we'll have to wait and see...

*applause* love it

[JamesDaTruth]

Originally Posted by ryanxxl

Ok guys, lets get to the Tbag issue.

As all know, Michael had no choice but to break him out. Yeah but, why?

Ok,I just remember that was because he has to free linc who was framed by the company.

By going through indirect ways up the chain of events, the company is definitely the source of the problem the second Terence was killed and they needed a scapegoat.


DramaDiva came up with the causality theory. A Good one but need a proper application.

The CAUSE (Action) : Framing linc for the death of Terence.

The EFFECT"S" (Reactions): All the events that followed...

So plain and simple.

The acts of T-Bag is just the mere indirect result of the first action. You just need to see the whole picture (The Scofield's way of seeing thing. Guys, you really have learnt nothing from the show or what!! lol)

Lets stop right there, T-bags actions were what got him in fox river in the first place. He didnt become a rapist and killer afterwards.(when linc was framed)

If we use your way of thinking
Cause: T-bag was molested as a child,by his father, brought up with redneck beliefs and racist mentality

Effect: He becomes a menace, lost in his on world, raping and killing because of deep seeded emotional problems.

We are talking about whos at fault for the actions of T-bag. Its not the Company....

Originally Posted by ryanxxl

The Scofield's way of seeing thing. Guys, you really have learnt nothing from the show or what!! lol

[JamesDaTruth]

Originally Posted by candyrose

And if it were discovered that the inmate was responsible, they would be in trouble ASAP and be isolated from the rest. It isn't like an inmate has anywhere to run, unless he already has an escape plan in the works. Out in the real world, someone could easily flee the scene, disappear into the crowd, and continue with their killing spree.

You see T-bag only as a killer. He is a child molester and a rapist.
He rapped a kid until he commited suicide. Pope and The C-Os knew he was a rapist and that he was raping his "pocket partner"... (watch the first time T-bag meets Michael, T offers the poket that someone else was already holding, meaning he was already raping people before michael came into the picture)
Can we then blame Fox river for T-bags Escape?
He wasn't isolated for his crimes and therefor was in gen pop where he was able to gain information on the escape plan.
If he was isolated....
He would never of met Michael, never been able to kill the C-O never have been able to rape the kid until he killed himself.

[ryanxxl]

I said look at the whole picture, not the wrong one.

Don't get me wrong but we have been focusing on the responsibility of Michael in Tbag's murder AFTER he set the rat free. So, we can go in tBag's past as far as when they very first met and Mike started
to have an influence on the way "Theodoro" thinks and act to be part of the escape plan.

So before, Scofield had really no influence (whether directly or indirectly) on TBAg's action.

The Company is responsible for the acts of Tbag the moment Michael break him out.

Let me set this straight.

Tbag is a flawed character since his childhood (Being an abused child induced that situation). When he was sent to Fox River, he wasn't able to rape and murder people outside cause he wasn't given the opportunity to.

But once our smart guy step into that prison with an elaborated break out plan, he created that opportunity for Tbag to be among civilians and to kill innocent people again. This is why many sees Michael as the one who enabled that situation.

Though he did, he can't be held responsible for the murders for the reasons I've mentioned in my previous post (The Causality Theory). Of course, i'm talking only about on who is indirectly responsible for the murders that Tbag did AFTER he met Michael. Maybe some of his past action can be indirectly attributed to his Dad as that guy was a he** of a dad.

At the end of the day though, we are all directly held responsible for our acts. But looking at the whole picture helps us to find who is behind/the motivator of our actions.

Just think about a mob. Why does cop always look after the Godfather??? Because they want to have a cup of tea or watch a movie with them??

By sending those guys to jail, they hope to stop the cycle of violence.

You want it or not, our environment have definitely an influence on us. The responsibility for our actions can't be fully attributed to us on the account of Free will.

True, we made our own decision but those decisions are not made in a closed system.

There is a society (A Jungle I rather say) out there which influence our every move...

No one is a Maverick in the real world...