Island & Jacob theories

[CathyH]

I seem to remember some weeks back that the producers of Lost said that if people wanted answers to the Lost questions, to keep reading their Bibles. After "Cabin Fever," I got to thinking about that and had more fodder for a theory I had already been developing.
At first, I believed that the island might be Atlantis. Atlantis supposedly disappeared by sinking, but what if it actually just moved? The four toed statue started me on this theory. Jacob, Richard, possibly Abbadon and perhaps more, are original Atlanteans. They can live on for eons, like Tolkien's elves, but they can also be killed. I couldn't remember if we had ever seen Richard's feet when he was wearing crude clothing. These people are not human, but humanoid. The first humans to set foot on the island were the survivors of the Black Rock. We know that at least one survived and escaped (hence the book purchased by Widmore).

This all seemed very logical until I thought about the Biblical implications. What if the island were even older than Atlantis? What about a place in which humans had been barred? Eden? In Genesis, God puts an angel at the gate in order to prevent the humans from coming back in, eating from the tree of life and living forever in their fallen state. In the ensuing years, we are also told that the "sons of God went in to the daughters of men" and had children by them. Some speculate that these are fallen angels with an ability to take on a human form and actually procreate. The resulting children were not truly human and were a very strong race of giants. These were supposed to be wiped out fully by the flood. Bear with me a bit here as I try to flesh this out. Certainly we can't be talking about the real Eden, as the location is given to us in Genesis (modern day Iraq).

Since only the full humans were outcast, what if some of these folks found Eden? They weren't stopped by the guardian as they were not human. Perhaps the tree had withered by this time. However, one of the safeguards is a magnetic anomaly that allows this paradise to be moved. Either by their own technology and ingenuity or by a natural occurrence, Eden is moved, becoming the island we now know. They are determined that humans not find it and invade it.

One blogger wrote that in one of the moves, the ship the Black Rock happened to be where the island moved. This would explain why it is where it is. Suddenly, there are humans here. The very properties of Eden, tree of life notwithstanding, enable healing and very long life, seeming immortality for the nephalim and very long life for a human, perhaps even healing from seemingly mortal wounds.

Moves take an enormous amount of energy, so the inhabitants do not move the island after the arrival of the Black Rock. They either kill or assimilate the survivors. However, at least one escapes and writes the log that Widmore now owns. The survivor's descendent is Alvar Hanso, who now knows where the island is and finds it. This is the second wave of human invasion. By the time the Dharma Initiative arrives, the remaining nephalim descendents are more human like and very weak. Indeed, there may be only a few. Jacob, the strongest of them, is physically dead, but his spirit lives on, trapped on the island.

The others are too weak to repel the invaders, although they try their best. They need the help of someone with very special abilities AND someone willing to wipe out those of his own kind (many of the others may have also had descendents from survivors of the Black Rock and are almost human now). Richard has been watching Ben and feels that he may be the savior they are waiting for. Unfortunately, Ben is also fully amoral. He uses his status to control and manipulate. He also learns how to use everything that Dharma has discovered about the island for his own use, including the teleportational ability. He finds a way to have some control and force some limitations on Jacob. Eventually, they all see their mistake. The mistake was of course, choosing Linus over Locke. Everything is set in place for years to bring Locke to the island. The natural properties of the island seem to bring out either the best or worst of the humans. All the people on 815 were chosen. They're all lost, messed up souls. The island will give them a chance, of their own free will, for redemption.

Of all the items that Richard presented to John Locke as a child, two were extremely interesting. Certainly the comic was a great touch. But it was the Book of Laws that interested me. One theorist has mistakenly identified this as The Book Of The Law by Alistair Crowley, a famed occultist. However, it is the Book of Laws. There are three possibilities for this book (1) a Bahai holy book (2) An Arabic holy book (3) A book written by Dutch 16th century Christian apologist Hugo Grotius (also know as De Groot). The reason I turn to this book is that one of De Groot's biggest influences was Jacobus Arminus. Anyone ever hear of Arminism? Jacob reasoned that free will was involved in salvation and this flew in the face of reformed Calvinism of the time. Bear with me here. Everything Ben did and does is about manipulation. Locke on the other hand, is very sorry every time he sees that he has forced people to do things. I think his apology to Hugo was very sincere. If Hugo was going to stay, it had to be his own choice. Ben, so used to manipulation, believes that Locke has actually manipulated Hugo into staying, but Locke was sincere. This is the difference between them.

I just read that the producers say that the name Jacob is no accident. Further, although De Groot was a conservative, some of his ideas influenced liberal thinker John Locke. That can't be a coincidence! Further, the co-founders of the Dharma Initiative are named DeGroot.


So, not only does the island offer redemption via free will, so the island's new found redeemer works on the same principal. When he falters, he is sorry. Perhaps I'm reading more into the Book of Laws, but when I did the research and found that De Groot was influenced by Jacob Arminus, well, the wheels just started turning.

There are areas that this idea breaks down and the Atlantean idea is better.

By the way, smokie is Jacob's Id. In the movie Forbidden Planet, everyone is battling a monster that turns out to be a projection of Morbius' id by use of the alien technology. I posted this idea to another forum and then found that someone else had also come to the same conclusion


There are areas that this idea breaks down and the Atlantean idea is better. If they were Atlanteans, they were weakened. Maintaining the islands magnetic properties would account for part of that. If there women mixed with the humans from the Black Rock, then the descents would be even weaker. By the time Dharma gets there, they're fairly powerless. Dharma does do some good things. They find the way to contain and control the magnetic anomaly. They discover how to use it for teleportation.

I have a feeling that Ben would not be able to move the island. Locke was literally created for whatever it will take to do this.

The island could have a consciousness that manifests itself as Jacob or anyone other person. I was going to say it only imitated dead people and things, but it also imitated Walt. Richard and Abaddon could be Atlantean descendents without human taint, still living seemingly eternally, but they can be killed.

CathyH

[sugarnuts]

Wow, thats a great theory. after seeing the four toed statue i started considering an ancient civilization. I was thinking of an island called Lemuria, but its basically the same thing as Atlantis.
Love the parts about the garden of Eden and John Locke. Especially the book's connection to the DeGroots. All in all, great theory, i really like it.

[CathyH]

Regarding the Forbidden Planet theory of smokie being Jacob's id, I just realized that one of the stations is The Tempest. Forbidden Planet is based on the Shakespeare play The Tempest. Could Ben be controlling smokie from there and could it be Ben's id instead of Jacob's?

Cathy H

[neenaw]

Hi Cathy. I like this theory but where did you find that Hugo Grotius wrote a book called Book of Laws? I've only been able to find that he wrote a book called The Law of War and Peace.

Cheers.

[CathyH]

What got me started on the De Groot connection was a suggestion on a blog about De Groot as author of a book called Book of Laws. I got so fascinated by what I was finding that I completely forgot to check whether or not that part was true.

In further research, I could not find that De Groot either authored such a book, nor could I find it as a compilation of his works.

However, now that I know about the De Groot/Locke/Jacob Arminis connections, I'm convinced that this is part of the whole story. In Lostland, everything is connected. All the characters and their stories are interconnected. Names are not coincidences, they are carefully chosen.

I tried taking the most famous Jacob in history into consideration, but I can't make any fit there. Jacob the twin, Jacob the con man, whose character and destiny are changed by God. Jacob, the father of many nations.

In the course of further research on the Book of Laws, I found that I am not the first to make the De Groot connection to Lost, nor the first to see the connection between De Groot and the original Locke. I believe I am the first though to make the Jacobus Arminis connection.

You are correct about the book.

I keep trying to throw out the Eden theory for Atlantis, but keep coming back to it. I stand corrected on calling them Nephalim though. It should be Anakim according to Numbers 13 & Deuteronomy 2 & 3.

CathyH

[erikau]

I like this. I have posted some Biblical Lost theory here before. What I like though, is the idea that we SHOULDN'T narrow it down to Eden/Atlantis or any of the others. Rather, this Island is the Island legends are made of, so to speak. Through out history there have been stories, myths, of strange and wonderful places. Eden, Atlantis, Shangra La, etc. What if they were all really the same place, told from the mouths of different cultures? In any case, if you look at the mythology behind any single one of these special places, you will find ties to Lost. I have a Lost = Atlantis theory on here somewhere haha.

The thing that sticks out most to be regarding Eden, is childbirth. In the Bible, it was a result of the expulsion from Eden that women were cursed with "the pains of childbirth." Now as a Biblical scholar I can tell you that there are two interpretations of this: the standard Christian answer is that yes, take that at face value, God made it more painful. However, many scholars argue that the true fall was not literally eating a piece of fruit. Rather, "eating from the tree of knowledge and good and evil" is a metaphor, a metaphor for the first time Adam and Eve had sex. They ended realizing they were naked, stripped of childlike innocence. On top of that though, they now had the knowledge of free will, and realized that they had the POWER to procreate without God. Thus they were punished, sent away, and childbirth was made to be painful. So, with an ordeal like that, who would want to bet that childbirth would be impossible in Eden? I would. Also...Eden is guarded by smoke and fire, helllooooo Smokey.

In any case, I wouldn't take it to a place where Lost becomes some sort of Hey the Bible was Right! mouthpiece. Rather, I think the writers are going more for a "so what if people haven't been stupid and crazy throughout the history of time?" theme. The common thread is of a secret place, a lost civilization, where the rules we see as universal truth are not so. Clues can be found within ancient texts from many different traditions.

[RichPundit]

Originally Posted by CathyH

...
Of all the items that Richard presented to John Locke as a child, two were extremely interesting. Certainly the comic was a great touch. But it was the Book of Laws that interested me. ... A book written by Dutch 16th century Christian apologist Hugo Grotius (also know as De Groot). The reason I turn to this book is that one of De Groot's biggest influences was Jacobus Arminus. ...
I just read that the producers say that the name Jacob is no accident. Further, although De Groot was a conservative, some of his ideas influenced liberal thinker John Locke. That can't be a coincidence! Further, the co-founders of the Dharma Initiative are named DeGroot. ... I did the research
...
By the way, smokie is Jacob's Id. In the movie Forbidden Planet, everyone is battling a monster that turns out to be a projection of Morbius' id by use of the alien technology. I posted this idea to another forum and then found that someone else had also come to the same conclusion
...
The island could have a consciousness that manifests itself as Jacob or anyone other person. I was going to say it only imitated dead people and things, but it also imitated Walt. Richard and Abaddon could be Atlantean descendents without human taint, still living seemingly eternally, but they can be killed. CathyH

Great homework, insight, & post CathyH!

For me, your post, particularly regarding "Hugo" Grotius and all the many connections, is a Game Changer, Radical/Disruptive Innovation, Catastrophe Cusp, Quantum Singularly, Tipping Point, etc. event towards potentially understanding our LOST mystery adventure. I quickly read much about Hugo via Lostpedia and Wiki, and plan more for later posting.

There is much to connect including some you didn't post, most likely due to post length, such as that Hugo Grotius (aka De Groot) was Island shipwrecked before his death, and that there are many perhaps relevant De Groot family members such as a chess champion behaviourist ["Enter 77"] who experimented with chess stages beginning with "Orientation". Much more ...

Agree there is much to connect including much already posted, to which you added a new and important thread to help weave our LOST tapestry/mosaic. If I may, think important tapestry/mosaic pieces include: Grotius's law of the free seas coupled with the French song "La Mer" from Rousseau's maps, the vial of likely special Island volcanic gems presented to boy Locke by our buddy Richard Alpert, Fountain of Youth mythology, Atlantis Mythology, Vial Vortices, Biblical/Roman/Greek/Egyptian/Buddha/Hindu/Arabic & other religious mythology [think CathyH adds much], genes, and of course, Forbidden Planet-like psyche sensing, analyzing, and acting.

Kudos to CathyH, and tx for the "Multiple Big O's"!!

Namaste - RichPundit

[ChristopheHaskell2]

WOW!!!! Great work Cathy!!!!!!!! You have been doing your homework. I agree that the island has some strange connection to mythology and I like the ideas about how different cultures and religions could have put their own spin on it and passed it down over the years. The theory about the island being Eden seems to fit the best, and it is the one I like the most. I had also studied theology when I was younger, and everything the island throws at us can be connected to the Bible, the Torah, or the Koran. I'm sure you have already heard the theories about Smokey being a djinn from Arabian mythology; or the theory about the giant bird from season 2 also being a creature from the Koran called a Roc.
I don't think the Atlantis mythos fits, although I wouldn't rule it out. Supposedly many Archaeologists believe Atlantis has already been found in the Mediterranean, and that it was destroyed by tidal waves and lava and ash from a nearby volcanic eruption, that was supposed to be the worst in known human history dwarving anything we've ever seen. This volcanic eruption is also supposed to be the explanation for the "parting of the Red Sea", which many scholars believe was actually the Reed River, and that the tidal wave caused by the eruption caused the water to be pulled out to Sea, and come violently back as a massive tidal wave on top of the soldiers. Many believe that Red Sea was just a mistranslation. I'm at a loss for the actual names of the locations of this Atlantis or the volcano, as I read an article about this several years ago, but if you researched it, I'm sure you will find what I'm talking about. The whole "sinking" of Atlantis is also thought to be an overdramatized account of what happened by primitive peoples. But anyways I'm getting offtrack.
There has also been a great deal of referrence to Greek or Roman mythology, such as: ( and especially ) Desmond and Penelope, who are almost a mirror to Odysseus and Penelope from the Odyssey. In the Odyssey, Odysseus defies the gods and is cursed to sail the seas for twenty years trying to return home to his wife Penelope. While sailing the seas, Odysseus also visits many strange islands full of strange peoples and creatures. One such island is home of the cyclops, who have four fingers and four toes ( remember the statue? ). This is very similar to Desmond trying to get off the island to Penny. Also, the candy bars Hurley is always eating are Appollo bars, and in mythology the island that Appollo was born on was an island in the sky that Zeus later anchored to the Sea and was considered sacred to the gods. So that is also something to think about, but who knows? The island could also be an amalgam of thigs from all religions and mythologies, pointing to the fact that in some way they were all right, and different peoples just passed different stories down over generations.
I do believe though that there are powerlines in the Losties bloodlines and that most are descendants of the original island inhabitants, which would explain why some just can't seem to die ( especially Locke, Ben, and Jack ), or they are the reincarnations of the original island inhabitants. The later theory may explain the constant use of phrases such as " You are not supposed to do this" or "this wasn't supposed to happen", because at the core of their souls they know what has to happen and what must be done and for some reason Locke ( and possibly Ben ) are the only ones who have any inkling of this. This also explains how Locke had any idea of the items that belonged to him when Richard presented them to him as a child. I also have another theory involving the Losties caught in a time loop that directly ties into who I think Jacob may be.
Some physicists believe that our universe is constantly ending and being born. That the Big Bang is the beginning, but that the universe can only expand so far before it then snaps back like a rubber band and collapses back in on itself, and the Big Bang happens all over again, and the universe and history happen exactly as they had before, and this cycle keeps repeating itself over and over again. It is also theorized that if you were to be able to change these predestined events that you would then be outside of this loop and could change the events, possibly even creating an alternate universe where events and history happen differently; BUT as we have heard before, the universe has a way of course correcting itself.
So what if one of the Losties figured out the time travel on the island, and couldn't bear the way events unraveled and went back to try it over and fix things, but when he goes back, he forgets how events unfolded and that he even time traveled and the exact same events repeat themselves to the point where he keeps going back in time and keeps making the same mistakes, unable to change anything, essentially getting trapped in a time loop. Other people would then have to be aware of this time loop to some extent, and would then try to trap him in time, to prevent him from repeating the cycle, and maybe the cabin itself and the ash around it, somehow anchor the time trapped individual but not completely as he still manages to time travel, but is still trapped in the cabin. Did anyone ever wonder if 'Jac'k could be short for 'Jac'ob? Jack does have a constant need to fix things, and if he found a way to go back and and prevent certain tragedies form happening I believe he would take full advantage of it. This may also explain why his father and half sister are hanging out in the cabin.

[CathyH]

I was unaware of De Groot's shipwreck. Again, these things can't be any coincidence. What I am finding out through this, is that the producers and writers are pretty savvy, learned people!

I was interested that a few more people also latched onto either the Eden or Atlantis ideas.

CathyH

[RichPundit]

Originally Posted by erikau

I like this. I have posted some Biblical Lost theory here before. What I like though, is the idea that we SHOULDN'T narrow it down to Eden/Atlantis or any of the others. Rather, this Island is the Island legends are made of, so to speak. Through out history there have been stories, myths, of strange and wonderful places. Eden, Atlantis, Shangra La, etc. What if they were all really the same place, told from the mouths of different cultures? In any case, if you look at the mythology behind any single one of these special places, you will find ties to Lost. I have a Lost = Atlantis theory on here somewhere haha.

The thing that sticks out most to be regarding Eden, is childbirth. In the Bible, it was a result of the expulsion from Eden that women were cursed with "the pains of childbirth."

Now as a Biblical scholar

I can tell you that there are two interpretations of this: the standard Christian answer is that yes, take that at face value, God made it more painful. However, many scholars argue that the true fall was not literally eating a piece of fruit. Rather, "eating from the tree of knowledge and good and evil" is a metaphor, a metaphor for the first time Adam and Eve had sex. They ended realizing they were naked, stripped of childlike innocence. On top of that though, they now had the knowledge of free will, and realized that they had the POWER to procreate without God. Thus they were punished, sent away, and childbirth was made to be painful. So, with an ordeal like that, who would want to bet that childbirth would be impossible in Eden? I would. Also...Eden is guarded by smoke and fire, helllooooo Smokey.

In any case, I wouldn't take it to a place where Lost becomes some sort of Hey the Bible was Right! mouthpiece. Rather, I think the writers are going more for a "so what if people haven't been stupid and crazy throughout the history of time?" theme. The common thread is of a secret place, a lost civilization, where the rules we see as universal truth are not so. Clues can be found within ancient texts from many different traditions.

I enjoyed reading your post Erikau. Several of your knowledgeable and insightful points relative to the possible inclusion of Biblical mythology in LOST appeal to me, and think they fit this CathyH thread well. Would like to weave Biblical mythology further if ok.

While I have never read the Bible, I have enjoyed a subscription to Biblical Archaeology Review (BAR) for several years. As you may know, the "Bible" simply means a collection of religious writings, and as I understand historical fact, there are over 35,000 known versions of it.

Perhaps more useful to this thread, I am currently enjoying a recent 800+ page book by James Kugel entitled "How to Read the Bible". Kugel is a retired, well-respected Biblical Scholar who identifies himself as an Orthodox Jew. His main thesis/advice is to read the Bible by comparing the views of the "ancient interpreters" with modern "biblical scholars".

Have only made it to page 56, but have already learned much fascinating scholarly biblical thought that may be relevant to LOST. Two quick points:

• Chapter 1 of Genesis differs from chapters 2 & 3. Chapter 1 says that all of humanity, "male and female", was created on the 6th day after creating all else, and does not mention either Adam & Eve or the Garden of Eden. Chapter 2 says "the Lord God shaped a man from the mud" before "any wild plant".
• Interestingly, Chapter 3 says that God did a "walk about" in the Garden of Eden to find Adam & Eve who were hiding.

A LOST nut like me can stretch the above biblical text to suggest that there were others in the Garden of Eden who differ from Adam & Eve, and who may not have been expelled from the garden and thus enjoyed immortality. This would be consistent with much mythology from a large number of cultures such as Greek, Roman, Eqyptian, Buddhism, Hindu, etc. as posted on this and many other LOST threads.

Whew! Namaste - RichPundit