Theory about the end of the show and Adam and Eve

[tailhook]

Its been a while since I've put out a big whopper of a theory but after going through all the various Adam and Eve/Theories on lostpedia I have yet to find any mention of this theory.

First i'll detail my biases. I'm not a big time loop guy. I don't like getting bogged down in Casimir effects and cloning and w/e techno-crap they like to wrap their science in. Its nice fluff.. and a decent distraction.. but it can't be the root of the story. It gives them decent Nerd Cred but really.. the story has to be approachable to the casual viewer. The handwaving really needs to be kept to a minimum.

Second... we tend to gloss over one thing... the Valenzetti equation. What was it meant to show? Here is the definition from Lostpedia:

"The equation was secretly commissioned through the UN Security Council and is used to predict the time of human extinction."

So lets digress a bit and say you're an astronomer.. you find out that 50,000 years from now.. a rock that will kill everyone is going to collide with earth. Is that likely to get anyone's panties in a bunch? Nope. Now.. you find out in 30 years that that same rock will kill everyone. What I'm getting at... is whatever the answer to the Valenzetti equation is... the time of human extinction is going to happen.. and soon. I would even postulate that it is going to happen during this series... and is the main reason they have to get back to the island.

Now here is an interesting question.. has it ever happened before? I believe the answer is yes. I now believe its not an island at all.. thats what we perceive it as... but an actual entity sitting in a fold of space that exists outside of the normal space-time continuum. It is essentially not part of our universe at all and the inhabitants of it will survive when the mass human extinction on earth occurs.

Now.. given that the Island provides immortality to those inhabitants while they are there.. they do not grow old... this could be a pretty long time. Long enough for the Earth to heal and become habitable again.

When that happens.. those residents become the core of the new population that grows to populate Earth. This is why kids are very important and why Ben is trying to get his hands on as many of them as he can. They are going to form the basis of that new society.

It is also why Ben does not kill indiscriminately. People don't end up on or at the island too often and when they do its always for a reason. If they are innnocents and mesh with the society.. they get taken in. If they aren't.. they won't be. This is why he always gets lists of people. To seperate the wheat from the chaff and increase the numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if part of his plan isn't to get those he wants to take off the freighter and then use the bomb he sent Michael to sink the freighter. We can allready see some people are being drawn to the island which led the captain to give his big speech while pummeling the guy in MKJ.

So what is the purpose of Jacob and the smoke monster? Jacob attracts them to the island and is a physical manifestation of the island.. the Smoke Monster tests them and kills them if needed. Both are two parts of the same entity. But they need human help.. thats where Ben came in and why he was brought to the island.

So what is Charles Whitmore after? Here is the kink. He wants the same thing as Ben. He wants himself and the people he chooses to survive the extinction. There is no good reason he wouldn't know about the Valenzetti equation.. both what it is.. and when its going to happen. So he's been using all his resources to first locate the island.. second to kill everyone there.. and third to install his people on the island so that they form the basis for the new civilization with himself as the head. This is why they are The Bad Guys. They care about using the Island to their own selfish ends without regard to what makes a good society or picking good people to survive the extinction.

Whats the Dharma Initiative? It was a program designed to create a society that could live on the island and attempt to find a way of changing one of the numbers in the Valenzetti equation in order to push back the extinction of mankind. It can't be avoided.. just like Charlie couldn't avoid death. But you can push the time back.. just as Charlie nearly died like 5 times before finally dying in The Looking Glass.

So how does this tie back into Adam and Eve? People have focused on who they were... not what they represent. Specifically.. they are the last two people who stayed on the island the last time Earth was reinhabited. Rather than go to the new Earth they decided their work was finished and stayed on the island to die. They then went to the cave. Since the island will not allow you to commit suicide they used the stones to determine who would stab the other first.

This has all happened before and it will all happen again. The purpose of the 4-toed statue is to be a physical representation of the prior civilizations that have been generated from the island.

So.. lets break-down Seasons 4-6.

Season 4 as stated by Cuselof is about who gets off the island. We now know its the Oceanic 6 and who those are.. the last 5 episodes should detail not only how they got off.. but Whitmore successfully taking over the island. Those Losties with Locke who do survive the attacks will use The Temple literally as a sanctuary from the killing. On the beach the 6 certainly cut a deal but there is a good deal of evidence to think we're going to see a major slaughter of extras once the brunt of the Whitmore gang(not just 4 jokers) get on-island. Ben of course finds a way off the island.

Season 5 as stated by Cuselof is about why they need to get back. Ben, as shown, works from the real world to organize. Slowly but surely the Losties will be pulled back in and told the deal with the Valenzetti Equation. That, in fact, an extinction is coming and the only way to survive it is to get back to the island. I think we can even assume this extinction will happen within 10 years which is why the prosecutor got a bug in her ear from someone to push for the stipulation that Kate not leave the state. By raising the stakes.. they attempt to ensure she won't come back. Furthermore, the Oceanic 6 find out some of the Losties managed to survive on the island via the Sanctuary and are now using the tunnel system there to keep from being discovered.

Season 6 is about how they get back and remove the Whitmore gang from the island. In essence this is the war for the island they talk about thats coming. Part of the reason Ben and gang are getting expelled(via Jacob) is to reform The Others and determine good people to bring to the island with them.

Here is the interesting part... for the story to hold together.. the events of the war have to inadvertantly lead to the extinction of mankind. Thats why the Valenzetti equation works. The fact that the island gets found inevitably leads to the technology from it destroying mankind. At this point you can wave your hands and talk about a clone being created that meets itself or w/e. The technology from the island is ultimately what kills us. But the island itself is ultimately what saves is.

Our heroes now ride out the extinction and Jack and Kate(or Penny and Desmond if you like that route) live long enough to see everyone off the island. The series ends with them deciding to kill each other in that same cave where they first found Adam and Eve and using the stones to determine who stabs the other first. Jack wins. She dies from her wound first as he mopes over her. Last shot is a close up of Jack's eye as it closes. Fade to black.

L O S T

Addendum: I just realized one other thing. The manner of the extinction. The earth will end up transformed into a ball of ice. This is why when Hurley was haunted in the mental institution he was making the picture of the Igloo and if you know your Vonnegut plays directly into a 'Cat's Cradle' style end of the world. Its also why polar bears have played a somewhat prominent role in the story. Its also why the end of season 2 ended at a polar station. All elements were simply foreshadowing the coming extinction.. by ice.

-TH

[RichPundit]

Originally Posted by tailhook

[edited/abridged]
I'm not a big time loop guy. I don't like getting bogged down in Casimir effects and cloning and w/e techno-crap they like to wrap their science in. Its nice fluff.. and a decent distraction.. but it can't be the root of the story. It gives them decent Nerd Cred but really.. the story has to be approachable to the casual viewer. The handwaving really needs to be kept to a minimum.

Second... we tend to gloss over one thing... the Valenzetti equation. human extinction ... the main reason they have to get back to the island. ... has it ever happened before? I believe the answer is yes.
... not an island ... but an actual entity sitting in a fold of space that exists outside of the normal space-time continuum.
...
those residents become the core of the new population that grows to populate Earth. ... to form the basis of that new society. ... If they are innnocents and mesh with the society.. they get taken in. If they aren't.. they won't be.
...
Jacob ... is a physical manifestation of the island
...
Charles Whitmore ... wants himself and the people he chooses to survive the extinction.
...
Dharma Initiative ... was a program designed to create a society
...
Adam and Eve ... represent ... the last two people who stayed on the island the last time Earth was reinhabited. ... This has all happened before and it will all happen again.
...
The series ends with ... Fade to black. L O S T -TH

Much fun TailHook, tx for sharing your intense effort! It's easy to sense your personal intellectual and emotional satisfaction from this LOST therapy ... Namaste!

imho,
think that it connects and weaves many of the threads in our vast LOST collective psyche, or in other words, identifies and fits the pieces of our LOST Mosaic as our Producers/Creators have articulated. Threads like Ben is really "one of the good guys", Island entity, DeGroot/BFSkinner Utopia Society, human extinction, Island physical manifestations, repeated events or "course correction" [sorry, time-loop], ruthless/rabid competing groups for Island control, etc..

Think that "We All Everbody" agree that "techno-crap ... can't be the root of the story". Who really remembers and/or cares about the "techno-crap" details in any previous sci-fi mystery adventure such as Frankenstein (dead/lightning), Star Trek, Forbidden Planet, Matrix, X-Files, on and on? The "techno-crap" makes the story interestingly believable and provides creative elements to help understand what is and may happen as the story line evolves ... as you did well by focusing on the Valenzetti Equation.

"We All Everybody" recognize that the truth is that this about capitalism and the free market creation of wealth. Disney/ABC et al are driving and evolving our LOST mystery adventure for the core purpose of creating wealth which is distributed disproportionately, albeit trickles down to us in various forms of entertainment including social.

Agree that our LOST story has to be appealing to a more casual, broader audience, so it can't be rooted in "techno-crap", tho' it is a critical element of the story telling. Your LOST theory has many elements that are widely appealing and accepted including by me. However, your "Fade to Black" ending is not appealing to a mass audience, and thus imho, unlikely. Humankind will be positively saved, flourish, and be light-years better from which we'll all be wealthier!

Whew ... sorry for my loong rant!

Namaste, and I look forward to more of your insightful and fun theory postings - RichPundit

[tailhook]

Thanks for the kind words.

Originally Posted by RichPundit

Your LOST theory has many elements that are widely appealing and accepted including by me. However, your "Fade to Black" ending is not appealing to a mass audience, and thus imho, unlikely. Humankind will be positively saved, flourish, and be light-years better from which we'll all be wealthier!

I do disagree here though. First.. in my theory mankind does get positively saved... Jack and Kate see to that. Its only after all the work is done and everyone has left that they decide to die on the island rather than live any longer as immortals.

And ending this series with an eyeball(especially Jack's) closing is really the only true way to end it and provide symmetry to the very start of the series. Their work that they were brought to the island to do is now done. The story is complete and they've saved the human race. That isn't a downer ending. And regardless.. if this series doesn't end with an eyeball closing I would be highly surprised.

-TH

[erikau]

I like your theory, but I think by leaving out all the stuff you don't like, well you're kind of missing a huge part of what the show has become. That being said, I think there is a way that you could keep your theory almost entirely the same, but with a little tweaking to fit some time things into it.

Basically, let's assume everything you said is good. I especially like your description of what the Island is, because I agree that the Island exists outside of time and space as we know it. Now having said that, and knowing the minimal that we know from the show about time and course correction...everything you said is right, but the Adam and Eve skeletons already ARE Jack and Kate (or Penny and Des, whatev). Maybe the end of the world has come...again and again and again. And as you said, the Island is not destroyed because it isn't anchored in the same planes of existence. Now I think Jacob is more than you say, because I think "he" is a just a physical manifestation or representation of the "entity" that is the Island. He is able to bring people to the Island, like Ben, Desmond and the 815ers, who he chose for the specific reason that they were the people needed to stop the end of the world from coming. BUT as we learned on the show from Mrs. Hawking, we have a destiny but it is up to us to achieve it. So even though Jacob brought the right people to the Island, they didn't get it right the first few times, leaving Jacob or whatever to have to course correct, using whatever time travelling blah to keep going back to the 815 crash over and over until they get it right. Adam and Eve are the bodies of them one of the times it went wrong.

I think this just marries your theory and the timeloop theories. There does seem to be evidence that sometimes the Losties are having memories of their past experiences on the Island, and they say things like "this isn't right" or "it's not supposed to happen this way."

Also, I now think again to Faraday and the playing cards. He is trying to recover his memories from former trips to the Island. If he can remember the cards, maybe he can remember what happened and redo it to ensure victory for his team once again.

In any case, solid theory, but I'd be really shocked with all the time crap if Adam and Eve turn out to be characters we don't already know very well.

You'd better be right about the closing eye though.

[tailhook]

Originally Posted by erikau

I like your theory, but I think by leaving out all the stuff you don't like, well you're kind of missing a huge part of what the show has become. That being said, I think there is a way that you could keep your theory almost entirely the same, but with a little tweaking to fit some time things into it.

Basically, let's assume everything you said is good. I especially like your description of what the Island is, because I agree that the Island exists outside of time and space as we know it. Now having said that, and knowing the minimal that we know from the show about time and course correction...everything you said is right, but the Adam and Eve skeletons already ARE Jack and Kate (or Penny and Des, whatev). Maybe the end of the world has come...again and again and again.

The problem I have with that is that the one thing you really can't violate is Island Time. We're allready throwing out the baby with the bathwater in claiming that the Island exists outside of the normal space-time continuum which causes a lot of questions to be addressed about coming and going and whether you can actually be transported to any time and place in 4space. 4space being the 4 dimensions of the 'real world'.. not the Island.

There at least needs to be something stable.. a base from which to tell the story by that we can actually relate to. If the Island itself does not follow a fairly linear progression.. the entire thing is going to collapse under its own narrative weight as you get tied up in your knickers trying to explain how they got into the island's past in order to die so that they can be found in the island's future or their past or w/e.

Originally Posted by erikau

I think this just marries your theory and the timeloop theories.

Its generally not wise to attempt to mix two different types of theories. Yours is the 'time loop' theory(events happen repetitively until Our Heroes find a way to break the cycle.. i.e. Groundhog Day). Mine is a 'time capsule' theory(there is a coming extinction and Our Heroes must find a way to preserve humanity and use them to reboot Earth.. i.e Millennium(1989)).

Those really don't mix any more than say Romeo and Juliet mixes with Macbeth. Simply two different types of stories and while it might make an interesting exercise for Zucker and Abrahams or Mel Brooks to mix them it doesn't really work here. I appreciate your input and certainly wish you luck on supporting the time loop theory(but as i said.. just not my thing).

-TH

[erikau]

Originally Posted by tailhook

Its generally not wise to attempt to mix two different types of theories. Yours is the 'time loop' theory(events happen repetitively until Our Heroes find a way to break the cycle.. i.e. Groundhog Day). Mine is a 'time capsule' theory(there is a coming extinction and Our Heroes must find a way to preserve humanity and use them to reboot Earth.. i.e Millennium(1989)).

Those really don't mix any more than say Romeo and Juliet mixes with Macbeth. Simply two different types of stories and while it might make an interesting exercise for Zucker and Abrahams or Mel Brooks to mix them it doesn't really work here. I appreciate your input and certainly wish you luck on supporting the time loop theory(but as i said.. just not my thing).

-TH

Haha, I didn't expect you to agree with me at all. I just don't see, if yours is correct, WHY the stuff with time? It would be completely unnecessary, and confusing.

But dude, good call on Millenium. I totally forgot about that movie! That would be neat, because ever since the appearance of the 4toed statue I was convinced the Island was somehow far off in the future, after evolution has gotten us down to 4 toes (as scientists say is happening now). Haha, bring up a Kris Kristoferson movie and suddenly my whole understanding has changed, Lost is like Millenium, except the future (the Island or Ben or whatever) is choosing which people crash? I like it.

[tailhook]

Originally Posted by erikau

Haha, I didn't expect you to agree with me at all. I just don't see, if yours is correct, WHY the stuff with time? It would be completely unnecessary, and confusing.

Which stuff... the Tom thread concerning 'the power of displacement' is more a postulate then a theory atm. A What if. Its not part of the main theory yet and honestly.. has a lot of ass pulling to it then really concrete stuff to support it at the moment.

Originally Posted by erikau

But dude, good call on Millenium. I totally forgot about that movie!

Hehe.. i'm glad someone other than me actually remembers it haha.

Originally Posted by erikau

That would be neat, because ever since the appearance of the 4toed statue I was convinced the Island was somehow far off in the future, after evolution has gotten us down to 4 toes (as scientists say is happening now). Haha, bring up a Kris Kristoferson movie and suddenly my whole understanding has changed, Lost is like Millenium, except the future (the Island or Ben or whatever) is choosing which people crash? I like it.

Yup. Its not just Oceanic 815 but all the people that are drawn to the island. Like Locke would say.. they were brought there for a reason. Its also one of the reasons when they did the casting they focused on making it so multi-cultural. If these people were possibilities for rebooting the human race you'd want as broad a spectrum of humanity as possible.

Which brings me to an interesting point. The war for the island might be more a PR one then a physical one. If we hold that people come to the island for a reason.. then anybody thats part of the Whitmore crew should be fated to head there. If Ben is reforming up... why go against the grain.. the goal should be to control these people not rail against them. After all.. a good deal of them are probably innocents.

It would be a two pronged attack.. first by knocking out the leadership it cuts these people off from the administrative body or severely weakens it... second he convinces the savees that going along with him is in their best interest. How does he do that? By having the Oceanic 6 on his side and as a PR tool. Here are people who have gone to the island and come back.. they are known worldwide and they are with me. Are you?

Once he assumes control and they get to the island he allows the smoke monster to filter out the 'bad people' that are there for their own selfish ends or will inevitably cause trouble in the future. If you don't pass the judgment of The Island you do not get to stay and survive. LOL. At the judgment.. I would then have Jack ask why Ben hasn't been judged... and when the smoke monster does.. it kills him.

Dying to the smoke monster after being judged and found wanting is the only truly statisfying way for Ben to die imo. No.. the ends did not justify the means.. but you were needed to make it happen.... so thanks.. but YOU DIE... HULK SMASH!

-TH

[erikau]

Originally Posted by tailhook

Which stuff... the Tom thread concerning 'the power of displacement' is more a postulate then a theory atm. A What if. Its not part of the main theory yet and honestly.. has a lot of ass pulling to it then really concrete stuff to support it at the moment.

I don't know what to call it, but the rocket experiment and the Constant made it very clear to me that it is important. But yeah, I agree, no one really knows what it is yet.

Originally Posted by tailhook

Yup. Its not just Oceanic 815 but all the people that are drawn to the island. Like Locke would say.. they were brought there for a reason. Its also one of the reasons when they did the casting they focused on making it so multi-cultural. If these people were possibilities for rebooting the human race you'd want as broad a spectrum of humanity as possible.

That's really good. I had a friend who was convinced the 815 people were like pawns in a chess game between some rich guys and sent on the Island to see who'd survive/get off, and that the reason for the various different ethnicities was to see who would win. I like your reason better haha.

Originally Posted by tailhook

Which brings me to an interesting point. The war for the island might be more a PR one then a physical one. If we hold that people come to the island for a reason.. then anybody thats part of the Whitmore crew should be fated to head there. If Ben is reforming up... why go against the grain.. the goal should be to control these people not rail against them. After all.. a good deal of them are probably innocents.

That's true, unless it's the case that Widmore isn't supposed to know about the Island (maybe Desmond hopping around talking to Penny screwed something up) and thus his freighter full of intruders are messing with fate, which is maybe why Ben is so adamant that they not even reach the Island.

Also, in Meet Kevin Johnson Ben tells Michael that the reason that the bomb won't go off yet is because there are still innocents on the boat. He also says that the bomb will work the way it's supposed to when it's supposed to. That tells me that Ben's plan IS to kidnap the innocents, the ones on Jacob's List, like he always does and "reform" them. The "going against the grain" is just to keep the true hostiles from executing their plan.

Originally Posted by tailhook

It would be a two pronged attack.. first by knocking out the leadership it cuts these people off from the administrative body or severely weakens it... second he convinces the savees that going along with him is in their best interest. How does he do that? By having the Oceanic 6 on his side and as a PR tool. Here are people who have gone to the island and come back.. they are known worldwide and they are with me. Are you?

Once he assumes control and they get to the island he allows the smoke monster to filter out the 'bad people' that are there for their own selfish ends or will inevitably cause trouble in the future. If you don't pass the judgment of The Island you do not get to stay and survive. LOL. At the judgment.. I would then have Jack ask why Ben hasn't been judged... and when the smoke monster does.. it kills him.

Dying to the smoke monster after being judged and found wanting is the only truly statisfying way for Ben to die imo. No.. the ends did not justify the means.. but you were needed to make it happen.... so thanks.. but YOU DIE... HULK SMASH!

Hmmm, I don't see Ben or Widmore going out anytime soon, unless you are talking about him taking out the captain. I agree that the O6 would be a great PR tool, people just love people who are alive when they shouldn't be. Also, something like the O6 puts all the emphasis on the survivors...not really any reason to think about the rest of the passengers anymore.

Also, I like your theory because then the people who are the O6 make more sense to me. Aside from Hurley and Aaron, none of them are what I'd call "good" people. Jack, ugh don't get me started. Kate is a selfish killer and maybe a baby stealer. Sayid is awesome, but he's done some really crappy stuff in his torturin days. I don't think Hurley was supposed to leave, which is why he's being visited by dead/undead Charlie. Maybe these people were brought to the Island for more utilitarian purposes, and are being rewarded for playing their roles by getting sent home/not killed by Smokey haha.

The one place I have to disagree is the demise of Ben. Ben is SOOOO the good guy! I know he's a weirdo, but he grew up on a frickin island with a bunch of hippie scientists and then weird ancient native people, give him a break. I think Ben was definitely brought to the Island. After MKJ and seeing that the Island potentially has influence anywhere, it no longer seems like it is a coincidence that he and his parents were stumbled upon by DHARMA employees, who would later offer Roger a job because they witnessed his whole life being destroyed. Ben did kill his father, but his father didn't seem like a particularly good guy. I'm not sure Ben won't bite it before the show is over, but I don't think it will be by Smokey, although that would be ironically kickass.

[tailhook]

Originally Posted by erikau

Hmmm, I don't see Ben or Widmore going out anytime soon, unless you are talking about him taking out the captain.

Not saying they would work together. Ben would seperate his people from him and then subvert them.

Originally Posted by erikau

The one place I have to disagree is the demise of Ben. Ben is SOOOO the good guy! I know he's a weirdo, but he grew up on a frickin island with a bunch of hippie scientists and then weird ancient native people, give him a break. I think Ben was definitely brought to the Island.

Oh.. I think he was too. But so was Eko. Didn't stop him from getting beat down when judgment time came. Just because the island may need Ben to complete the mission doesn't mean its going to allow him to be part of the society post-extinction.

After all.. even Moses didn't get to go to the Promised Land.

Originally Posted by erikau

I'm not sure Ben won't bite it before the show is over, but I don't think it will be by Smokey, although that would be ironically kickass.

Thing is.. Ben has been built up so much that having him just die at someone's hands would be unfulfilling. And he's done waaaaaaaaaaaay too much evil in the name of good to survive the end of this series.

-TH

[erikau]

Originally Posted by tailhook

Oh.. I think he was too. But so was Eko. Didn't stop him from getting beat down when judgment time came. Just because the island may need Ben to complete the mission doesn't mean its going to allow him to be part of the society post-extinction.

After all.. even Moses didn't get to go to the Promised Land.


Thing is.. Ben has been built up so much that having him just die at someone's hands would be unfulfilling. And he's done waaaaaaaaaaaay too much evil in the name of good to survive the end of this series.

-TH

Very good point, I like the Moses comparison.

It might be fulfilling to see Jacob finally materialize and choke the life out of him for being such a putz haha. Or maybe Locke will finally grow a pair and throw a knife in his back.