Ben & Jacob

[sugarnuts]

Okay, has anyone looked up jacob? he is a biblical character and we can assume that the show is hinting at the biblical jacob when we saw the message "God loved you as he loved Jacob"
Now dont disregard this theory until you look up this story, because im not gonna cover anything about it except Jacob had a twin: Esua.
The article in wikipedia will shed some light on Jacob and Esua's relationship. if you read it try to imagine Ben as Esua. Maybe Ben is Jacob's "Bad Twin"

God favored Jacob over esua because Jacob was good and esua was bad.
Anyway, i think Bens character is just like esua. Esua hates jacob in the story. Esua plans to harm Jacob, this would explain Ben trapping jacob and Jacob asking locke to "help me"
also when esua was born he was born with red on him. when Ben was born he had red stuff on his head.
I think that Jacob is a part of Ben (maybe ben's twin died inside his mother but lives on in ben), the part that can communicate with the island, and bens losing his touch with him.
Maybe miles was put on the boat to communicate with jacob, we know that miles talks to the dead(Ben's dead twin)
Jacob might be the person the island takes the form of to ben, like how the survivors see people that shouldn't be there. like jack sees christian.
one last thought: Jacob(from the bible) had a son named Benjamin
also if anyone finds out what jacob and esua's surname is, please post it.
Anyway, just tryin to make some connections
let me know what you think

[lacheros_big_ass]

ben & jacob smoke weed together

[Byzantine]

Jakob Friedrich Fries (1773-1843)

[nemesise1977]

Originally Posted by sugarnuts

Okay, has anyone looked up jacob? he is a biblical character and we can assume that the show is hinting at the biblical jacob when we saw the message "God loved you as he loved Jacob"
Now dont disregard this theory until you look up this story, because im not gonna cover anything about it except Jacob had a twin: Esua.
The article in wikipedia will shed some light on Jacob and Esua's relationship. if you read it try to imagine Ben as Esua. Maybe Ben is Jacob's "Bad Twin"

God favored Jacob over esua because Jacob was good and esua was bad.
Anyway, i think Bens character is just like esua. Esua hates jacob in the story. Esua plans to harm Jacob, this would explain Ben trapping jacob and Jacob asking locke to "help me"
also when esua was born he was born with red on him. when Ben was born he had red stuff on his head.
I think that Jacob is a part of Ben (maybe ben's twin died inside his mother but lives on in ben), the part that can communicate with the island, and bens losing his touch with him.
Maybe miles was put on the boat to communicate with jacob, we know that miles talks to the dead(Ben's dead twin)
Jacob might be the person the island takes the form of to ben, like how the survivors see people that shouldn't be there. like jack sees christian.
one last thought: Jacob(from the bible) had a son named Benjamin
also if anyone finds out what jacob and esua's surname is, please post it.
Anyway, just tryin to make some connections
let me know what you think

Um not Quite. Jacob kinda stole/bought Esaus birthright for a bowl of stew

[erikau]

I like that you linked island Jacob with Bible Jacob, because that "God loves" message made me think the same thing. Unfortunately, you seem to have a lot of the elements of the Biblical story confused, which probably hurts your understanding of how it could be connected with Lost.

KEY PLAYERS:

Isaac and Rebekah- Isaac, son of Abraham. Was a gift given by God to Sarah, who was never supposed to be able to have children. God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac on a mountain, and when God realized his servant would obey even though it meant killing his own blood, he spared Isaac's life. Thus, Isaac is a living representation of the good things that come from God's love, IF and WHEN you obey God. So Jacob and Esau are literally the sons of a miracle child, who is beloved by God. Rebecca is his wife, but she was barren when they met. Isaac prayed for her and she was able to conceive, and she feels the twins fighting inside her womb before they are born. Thus, Esau and Jacob are miracles themselves, born to a woman who was supposed to be barren.

Esau- first-born twin. His name literally means "hairy," and he was described as a ruddy (red-complexioned) outdoorsman, a hunter of sorts (sound like Locke?). As first-born, he was entitled to the birthright (will be explained further below), although as a nonconformist/nontraditionalist, he did not care about it very much. He is favored by his father Isaac. Isaac is a very good man.

Jacob- second-born twin, comes out of the womb clutching his brother's heel (pulling one's heel is a predecessor to pulling a leg, deception). In contrast to his strong, rugged brother, Jacob is described as pale and gentle, likely very studious. (sound like Ben?) He covets his brother's birthright. He is favored by his mother, Rebekah, although no explanation as to why is given.

Condensed version of events:

Jacob really wants the birthright. The birthright is not just land. It is also a promise from God to Abraham, saying that whoever had the birthright would carry the line that would eventually bring blessings to the whole world, or the Chosen People. Yeah, it's kind of a big deal. But Esau, in his rational knowledge, knows that part of being that Chosen People involves 400 years of slavery before they would be returned to their rightful place, as prophecized (and would be said to be confirmed by the Jewish exiles in Egypt, Rome, etc.). Esau really doesn't want any part of this, being more apathetic to the situation than his little brother. So Jacob tricks Esau, not once but TWICE, into giving up his place.

The first time went like this: Esau has been travelling and is close to starving to death. Jacob holds some lentil soup (which is apparently red in color) under his nose and tells him he can have it...in exchange for the birthright (how a birthright is so easily transferrable baffles me, but hey, it's the Bible so what can you do). Esau, once again being the king of rationale realizes this: 1) he will die without food, and 2) birthrights are no good to dead people. So, he trades his birthright for the soup, knowing that if he starves to death Jacob will get it anyway. They are 15 at the time. Still, Esau has top position as the eldest, so Jacob does it again.

This time, it is by taking the patriarchal blessing from Isaac that should have gone to Esau. Isaac, now old and blind, wishes to give his blessing and bestow his household to his eldest, Esau. Jacob waits til Esau goes hunting, dresses in his skins, and then goes to Isaac and receives the blessing. Thus, it is by manipulation and trickery that Jacob gets what is rightfully Esau's. Jacob goes on to become the founder of the 12 Tribes of Israel, and Esau goes on with his life after realizing it's a futile fight.

From this reading, who would the bad guy be to you? Esau, the twin who worked dutifully for his family and remained practical, or his brother Jacob, so jealous of his own brother that he resorted to deceptions in order to steal his life? Also, which one sounds more like Ben to you? I think it is most certainly Jacob.

More links?

The Great Wife-Swap Incident-

So after Jacob had grown up a little bit and has the birthright all secure, it is time for him to marry. He goes to Laban, his uncle, and falls in love with his younger daughter, Rachel. Jacob wants to marry her, but Laban says only if Jacob works for him for 7 years. Jacob does it, claiming that "7 years will feel like a day" (hmmmmm) if he is with Rachel. His serves Laban as ordered and the wedding happens. However, when Jacob deveils his bride he sees it is Leah, Laban's older daughter. Laban says it is unheard of to marry off a younger daughter first, but he says that he will still allow Jacob to marry Rachel too if he works another 7 years. Jacob does it, and at the end of that 7 years he marries Rachel, too. Jacob loves Rachel, who is young and beautiful, but does not feel quite the same way for her older sister Leah.

*Name sidenote: Laban means "white" or "pure." He is generally thought of by Biblical scholars as a sort of foil character. He is an example of a good person with good intentions who ultimately screws the pooch when his own personal plans for his family interfere with God's plans for the world. Laban tries to interfere with these plans, and ends up causing a lot of trouble (his tricking Jacob into marrying Leah is directly responsible for the Jewish exile in Egypt later on).

However, here comes the kicker: Rachel is barren. Leah pops babies out left and right. The woman Jacob really loves cannot give him an heir, but her sister gives him many. He also has some kids with a few servants. Jacob was kind of a whore. Aside from the obvious ties to fertility problems on the island, it can go a bit further. Not to deny Rachel the same miracles he gave Sarah and Rebekah, Rachel does eventually conceive with God's blessing. Her first child with Jacob is Joseph, who becomes important later on because of his ability to interpret dreams (hmmmm, Desmond?). More interesting is her second, and final son, Benjamin. Rachel dies giving birth to Ben (deja vu), whose name means "son of my pain" and "son of my right hand." These duel meanings suggest that the child was born from pain or born causing pain, but also that the child is beloved by God. It is rumored that Benjamin died without ever committing a sin. All of Jacob's children, with Leah, Rachel, and others, would end up being the 12 tribes of Israel, with each of his 12 sons starting a tribe.


WHEW. So that was my short mini-version of the Biblical events and the characters. Using the right story, I think Ben Linus makes the best candidate for a Jacobian figure. He is NOT the Chosen One (maybe it is Locke, or Hurley, or Walt), but so desires it and will go to any length to achieve it (in the story Jacob's mother helps him...didn't ghost Emily Linus come to Ben before he decided to purge the Island?). Ben's character is set to sharply contrast the more rugged outdoorsy characters (Esau's) around him, and I don't think it needs to be said that he is a master manipulator and deceiver. Whether his intentions are good or bad, like Jacob, his desire for control and to be God's beloved outweighs the usual boundaries of right and wrong. Ben will do anything to protect Island-Jacob (just think of him as a patriarchal figure, a manifestation of the island's self if you will). Anyway, I'm not looking for specific links, but I do see similarities in themes. If I had to extend the Biblical metaphor to Lost, I'd say I would not be shocked if we found out that the Losties were the 12 Tribes of the Island or whatever, in other words Ben Linus' children OR the descendants of Ben's chidren with women throughout time. I have already decided that Ben jumps, or travels through time and space basically at will, and maybe he is finally calling his children home to help him save the island from the forces who want to take back control (who would represent the Esau line).

The Jacob/Rachel story correlates to my theory on the Ben/Annie/Juliet situation.

One last cool little note: two sons of Jacob, Levi and Simeon, purge an entire city in the Bible after their sister is raped.

Now my head hurts.

[sugarnuts]

Erikau, thanks for setting me straight on the Jacob and Esua story.
Now that i read that ENORMOUS comment, i absolutely agree that Jacobs character reflects Bens character.
I also agree on Locke being the esua type.
Him and Ben are rivals and locke would be the hunter/fighter, and Ben would be the trickster.

Also i was thinking abou the quotation from Lost: "God loves you as he loved Jacob"
Did Jacob fall out of gods favor? is that why it says "loved" instead of "love"

[erikau]

It could also hint at Jacob being something from the past...

[sugarnuts]

okay i didn't want to start a new thread on this exact subject, so im reviving this one.

So what exactly is going on with Ben and Jacob? Let me take a few steps back and say that when i heard Ben say "he changed the rules" i automatically assumed he was referring to Widmore. But what if he was talking about Jacob. jacob could have let Alex die as a sign to Ben that it was over for him, he was no longer wanted. The island had found who was really supposed to be running things, John Locke. This is why Ben so willingly passes the torch on to Locke, when they reach the cabin (literally and figurativly). Also why Ben needs Hurley to come, because he cant find the cabin anymore. Also why he says "i used to have dreams...." and so on.

Im just trying to find out why ben fell out of jacob's favor, any ideas?

[mugatu22]

Originally Posted by sugarnuts

...when i heard Ben say "he changed the rules" i automatically assumed he was referring to Widmore. But what if he was talking about Jacob.

When Ben visits Widmore's penthouse, he tells Widmore to his face that he's going to kill Penny because "you changed the rules." They draw a straight line to it in the show, so Ben is indeed talking about Widmore when he says that.

[erikau]

Originally Posted by sugarnuts

okay i didn't want to start a new thread on this exact subject, so im reviving this one.

So what exactly is going on with Ben and Jacob? Let me take a few steps back and say that when i heard Ben say "he changed the rules" i automatically assumed he was referring to Widmore. But what if he was talking about Jacob. jacob could have let Alex die as a sign to Ben that it was over for him, he was no longer wanted. The island had found who was really supposed to be running things, John Locke. This is why Ben so willingly passes the torch on to Locke, when they reach the cabin (literally and figurativly). Also why Ben needs Hurley to come, because he cant find the cabin anymore. Also why he says "i used to have dreams...." and so on.

Im just trying to find out why ben fell out of jacob's favor, any ideas?

I'd say it happened when he shot Locke. I think the Island/Jacob was okay with a little friendly competition between its chosen Sons, but once Ben took it personally and allowed his own jealousy to get in the way of the good of the Island, he lost favor. I would even say it had STARTED to happen before then, probably just due to Ben becoming power hungry, but Ben only truly started to seem defeated when Locke walked up after he'd been shot and left for dead. Ben knew his time was up then.

Or, maybe it happened a long time ago when Ben trapped Jacob in the cabin, and we are now just starting to see the effects of it as Jacob (with the help of Locke) gets closer to regaining his strength and power.