The War

[sugarnuts]

The popular consesus i've seen so far is that the war Widmore predicted is either between the DI and the others, or a civil war among the others.

I disagree. Keep in mind who Widmore told about this coming war and when. Widmore told John Locke when he got off the island in 2004.

Not an exact quote: "There is a war coming John, and when it comes, you better be on that island otherwise the wrong side will win."

Widmore was not telling John about a war that would happen in 1977, where most of our losties went. He was talking about a coming war. He is saying this in 2004 meaning what he is talking about will happen after not before.

Widmore funded Faraday's research, so you can bet your ass he knows about Faraday's "time is like a string theory". He knows that whatever happened, happened. So why would he expect Locke to stop a war that already happened?

The coming war is nothing as trivial as a civil war between others or a war between them and Dharma. It is World War III.

Exactly what the Valenzetti equation predicted.

[erikau]

I think the war he is talking about is in 1977, and he said coming because for John and the 815ers, it was coming...it hadn't happened for them yet, even though technically it had happened in time already. It is like how Miles tried to explain it to Hurley, even though it was technically an event in the timeline's past, they experienced it as their future...they lived in 2004 before they lived in 1977. The midn doesn't know something until it experiences it, no matter when it happened.



I think the War will be over Ben. Alpert brought him back without asking Widmore, the leader, or Ellie, the timecop so to speak. Perhaps Ben was never supposed to be brought back, he was suposed to die, and Richard is the one messing with fate by bringing him into the Temple. The War will be between Alpert and those who want to keep Ben alive because they believe he has some special purpose, and Widmore and Ellie, who know what will happen if he is allowed to live. Ben manages to gt them scooted of the Island, so Widmore and Elle have to fight a proxy war...they arrange for their unwitting soldiers, their proxies, to crash on the Island and aid their past selves.

[sugarnuts]

I think the war he is talking about is in 1977, and he said coming because for John and the 815ers, it was coming...it hadn't happened for them yet, even though technically it had happened in time already. It is like how Miles tried to explain it to Hurley, even though it was technically an event in the timeline's past, they experienced it as their future...they lived in 2004 before they lived in 1977. The midn doesn't know something until it experiences it, no matter when it happened

Widmore told Locke he had to be on the island or the wrong side would win right? Well if the war takes place in 1977, what the hell can he do about it? He's in the present!

Again, Widmore more than likely knows about time being like a string, he funded the man who came up with the theory, so how could he expect anyone to go back to 1977 and stop what already happened?

Im not saying some sh*t won't go down in 1977, it seems unavoidable now, but i dont think thats what Widmore was talking about.

Ben manages to gt them scooted of the Island, so Widmore and Elle have to fight a proxy war...they arrange for their unwitting soldiers, their proxies, to crash on the Island and aid their past selves.

Again, Widmore and Ellie hould know better than anyone that what ever happened, happened. What Widmore (and maybe ellie) are doing now is for the present/future.

[Stevelle]

I don't discount it could be a future war. But, I still think it could be a "past" war.

We know that as late as 1977, Widmore and Elle are on the Island. We know they must leave at some point after that, to be in the present 2004 to 2007 world. We know, for now at least, Locke is on the island in 2007. If the war had happened at some point in the past, it is either:
A) Widmore's time on the island up to 1977 or
B) After 1977 but before Widmore leaves.

If it happens during these time periods, and John plays some pivitol role in the outcome that is/was favorable to Widmore, the Widmore we see greeting Locke would have already experienced it and KNOW Locke's importance. In the course of speaking with him, it seems likely he would be able to deduce that the John he sees in 2007 has arrived without having played his part yet. Therefore, Widmore could conclude he needs Locke to go back, and if he ascribes to Faraday's concept of time, that everything that happened, happened, that John, once on the island, "where" he needs to be, will make his way to the right "when" eventually.

Since we know Widore feels Ben "stole" his island from him, and desires to go back, we can assume he was either forced off the island or had to leave out of neccessity to prevent something worse (in his opinion) from happening that he blames Ben for. It is possible that Somehow Widmore knows that Locke SHOULD have been there, but wasn't during the critical point in Widmore's past, and so, as a slight variance to the previous arguement, he hopes Locke going back might somehow change his own past. This would require Widmore to disregard Daniel's theory of time, and consequently, leaves the issue of how to get John in the past, the right "when" as well as "where", if you will, up in the air, because Locke was not there when Widmore needed him. The only way this theory works is if a 1977ish Widmore meets Kate, Hurley or Jack on the island and learn's Locke was on their plane, but didn't make the time jump. Plot wise, something happens where John's presence (or absence) changing an outcome is made apparant to Widmore during this "war", and thus Widmore realizes Locke's importance, and concludes he needs to be there for the right side to win.

In either case, it would be a past certaintiy for Widmore that Locke needed to be there and then for a favorable war outcome.

[sugarnuts]

That was a really good argument stevelle, i must admit.

If it happens during these time periods, and John plays some pivitol role in the outcome that is/was favorable to Widmore, the Widmore we see greeting Locke would have already experienced it and KNOW Locke's importance.

About this, when Widmore first talks to Locke off-island, at his bedside, he mentions remembering Locke from the day he walked into their camp. i would assume that if he had already experienced Locke being important in the hostile war, he would mention that as well. Especially if that was his reason for sending him back to the island.

The basis for my theory is this: Widmore more than likely knows that time cannot be changed, so why would he think Locke can help change this? Either he thinks Locke can alter the past (he did tell locke he was special) or he was talking about something that hasn't happened yet, which he thinks Locke can prevent.

This would require Widmore to disregard Daniel's theory of time, and consequently, leaves the issue of how to get John in the past, the right "when" as well as "where", if you will, up in the air, because Locke was not there when Widmore needed him.

the when and where would be a pretty big part of the plan to leave up in the air, don't you think? Widmore want's John to go back to the island to help him in his war in 1977, but we're here in 2004. Oh well, i'll just send him to the island and hope he lands in the exact place and time where i want him.

Doesn't sound like a very good plan.

I see what you're saying though, and i get where you're coming from. It's just that unless something developes on Lost where our present time losties can get back in time, im just not buying that they're there for that specific war. Even if they did, theres still the fact that whatever happened, happened. So even if Widmore already experienced Locke being in the war and his importance, that side will always lose because thats what always happened.

Widmore sending Locke to the island to take part in an un-winnable war is futile and uncomprehensible, so for now im going with the only alternative that makes sense.

[Lurcher]

Why is no-one pointing out that Widmore wanted John back on the island, and his subordinate insinuated John HAD to die in order to make things right. Ben- the alleged 'other side' of this war- wanted John back on the island, and killed him in order to get it done.
These don't really seem like two men with a seperate agenda to me

[Stevelle]

About this, when Widmore first talks to Locke off-island, at his bedside, he mentions remembering Locke from the day he walked into their camp. i would assume that if he had already experienced Locke being important in the hostile war, he would mention that as well. Especially if that was his reason for sending him back to the island.

You know, that's a fair point. Widmore really did not seem to have seen Locke more than just the one time, based on what he says to Locke in the makeshift hospital. I suppose he's a pretty good liar, so he might be keeping mum about any other meeting, but that's probably a stretch. A final war that is set in the "present', that has an open ended outcome certainly would be more dramatic and entertaining than a fait accompli past battle.

I see what you're saying though, and i get where you're coming from. It's just that unless something developes on lOST where our present time losties can get back in time, im just not buying that they're there for that specific war.

I'm guessing that Christian Sheppard's response to Sun and Frank's expressed need to get to Jin and the others that it would be a long journey, as opposed to an impossible one, suggests that there is a way to get to them, but that response is open to multiple interpretations that don't require time travel.

[sugarnuts]

Lurcher, I don't think Ben killed Locke with the knowledge that in doing so, he would be sending him back to the island. I think he killed him, because of something Locke said when he was sitting in the chair, something about Ms. Hawking.

Stevelle, Widmore could definetly be lying to John, but i can't for the life of me see why. Then again, the story is still developing so it's not unreasonable to expect some twists in the upcoming episodes.

I'm guessing that Christian Sheppard's response to Sun and Frank's expressed need to get to Jin and the others that it would be a long journey, as opposed to an impossible one, suggests that there is a way to get to them, but that response is open to multiple interpretations that don't require time [COLOR=blue! important][COLOR=blue! important]travel[/color][/color]

Oh thats right, i forgot about that. That absolutley insinuates time travel, but it could work both ways, like Jack and co. coming to the future (i hope the show doesn't end in the 70's)

If you consider promos for next week's episode spoilers then stop reading.

The whole premise for next weeks episode is Ben being judged. Could his punishment be to turn the wheel again? This would be a way for the current losties to get back in time.

[Lurcher]

Ok so Ben and Charles may not be on exactly the same side, but they appear to be fighting for the same cause for different ends.
Has no-one considered the whole bunch of new people from 316 may have something to do with this 'war'? Ilana definately knows something and what's Cesar's deal?

[touzoku]

I'm convinced that the war will be a civil war between the others.

Remember what Richard told Kate and Sawer when they brought Ben to them.

Once he becomes one of us he will be one of us forever.

This means that Ben and Widmore will always be an other, they are clearly at war with each other

so civil war.....

a power struggle for leadership within the group known to us as the others.