What Ben Knew--And When He Knew It...about the crash, the survivors, etc.

[Talontbo]

MOD EDIT: The first few posts in this thread were taken from another thread that got off-topic, so if there is a reference to something you don't see here (which I don't think there is, but just in case) check out the thread about Sun and her father.



as a continuation... to the Speculation.... sometimes its best to look to the beginning.. The Crash of Flight 815....

and what we know based on what we have informed of...

So far...

Desmond... apparently causes the Crash.. or at least HE thinks he did...

Ben.. out of favor and with Tumor on board.. needed Patchy to compile dossiers on the passenger...... which tends to indicate he was clueless to Jack being a spinal surgeon, being a passenger on the flight... clueless to all of the passengers actually..

Locke... followed by Richard his whole life.... here is a paradox... Locke and several others where on Jacobs List...

Kelvin.. ready to set sail... Desmond getting curious... Kelvin dead... 2nd EMP Event Causing Crash before Desmond enters the code...(first event.. Dharma.. second Desmond.. third implosion)...

so on one hand.... this 2nd event appears to be a random set of circumstances that just so happened to down the plane... and yet we are also being led to believe it may not have been so random.. why... Locke.... and a few other LISTIES....

just seems far fetched that the Island could orchestrate all this...gotta Love TV....

but does all this point to the third possibility...??????

Not Benny/Richard/Jacob... Not Widmore/Penny/Abbaddon..

but someone else entirely???? as yet an Unkown?????

[sugarnuts]

Originally Posted by Talontbo

but does all this point to the third possibility...??????

Not Benny/Richard/Jacob... Not Widmore/Penny/Abbaddon..

but someone else entirely???? as yet an Unkown?????

Could this be where Paik fits in?

But then again, the plane crash was not an accident. It was course-correction. Locke was meant to be on the island. The plane probably didn't crash just for him, most of the other survivors also have a purpose on the island as well.

Desmond thinks it was an accident, just like he thinks he ran into the island by accident.
Just like a spinal surgeon crash landing on an island with an inhabitant who has a tumor on his spine. "Everything happens for a reason" Ben just wasn't supposed to die yet.

[sugarnuts]

Originally Posted by Talontbo

Locke... followed by Richard his whole life.... here is a paradox... Locke and several others where on Jacobs List...

\


Oh yeah, about jacob's list. When ben saw the plane crash he ordered Ethan and Goodwin to get a full list of names of all the passengers. Then mikhail researched everyone's background. Jacob then told Ben who he wanted him to take.
So as you can see, the list was made after 'locke and several others' came to the island so its not contradicting at all.

I have a theory as to why Alpert was involved in John's life as a child.
Heres the timeline: Locke crashes on island. List is made. Locke meets Alpert. Alpert realises john is special. (heres the twist) Alpert then goes back in time, via the orchid station, and studies Locke. The first time Alpert ever ses locke is on the island. He goes to see him as a child AFTER he meets him on the island, he probably got the items for 'the test' from Locke himself

[Talontbo]

hey Sugar..

I would so dearly love to say.... "Your Crazy"...

but that is actually a fantastic thought.. not sure its correct but it is very very good...

as a supporting addition.. we don't get to see Richard meet John.. until after Locke is on the island.. so that is a mark for the positive...

but it fails to account for Abbadon... and his not so subtle nudge...

be that as it may.. its brilliant...and could very well be correct...

you have givem me something new to explore... TY..

[sugarnuts]

Happy to give you some more to explore.

Your right, I don't really fit Abbadon's appearance into the idea. He is a complete, and utter mystery to me. A Walking question mark if i ever saw one.

Alpert and Abbadon's appearances could be unrelated, but the way the episode was presented, it seems unlikely.

But Abbadon, doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with Richard. We dont know if the two even know each other. Let alone share a time traveling ability, and it seems time travel is only possible through the island, where we have never seen Abbadon

[RichPundit]

Originally Posted by sugarnuts

\
I have a theory as to why Alpert was involved in John's life as a child.
Heres the timeline: Locke crashes on island. List is made. Locke meets Alpert. Alpert realises john is special. (heres the twist) Alpert then goes back in time, via the orchid station, and studies Locke.

Great theory Sugar****!

Think fits well that Island entities observe "Special" opportunities such as Locke 815 crashing, then help shephard beneficial "course corrections" by traveling back in time. Also imho, my guess is that Abaddon is joined with our buddy Richard Alpert for good purposes. However to me, Keamy seems clearly in conflict with Lapidus, Daniel, Charlotte, and Miles who I sense are really "the good ones", yet the latter group were recruited by Abaddon and arrived via the Freighter with clearly evil Keamy. Have brain-locke ... albeit, think "creative tensions" are a good thing, and are a main source of pleasure for me.

Think we can together further expand Cheesesays's thread leveraging your innovative insight ... tx much!

Namaste - RichPundit

[erikau]

Sugarnuts, I LOVE that idea. When Alpert gave Locke the test, to me it was obviously a variant on the Dalai Lama test. I think allllll of the items were connected to Locke, or maybe at least all of the ones he touched and carefully considered, and Alpert's test was more of a test of character. A few of the items should have given young Locke a strange feeling of familiarity...the sand, the book, the knife, all should have given young Locke that eerie feeling. Alpert's test was more to gauge the psychological development of young Locke, what kind of person would he be? This is why Richard was angry when Locke chose the knife, yet continued to monitor him and try to steer him towards a life of good and science. He was trying to mold young Locke, so that when older Locke landed, he would be the right kind of person that Alpert needed.

Abaddon could fit in the other way, trying to make sure the Locke that landed on the Island was weak, gullible, or whatever traits would make Locke a thorn in Alpert's side. Also, we still don't know what favor he owes Abaddon...has he already done it? Was taking the walkabout, and thus crashing on the Island, the payback that Abaddon was talking about all along?


Also, back to the money, I think it is mostly Sun doing it on her own. We know she blames two people for her husband's death, and I get the feeling that one of them will be someone from the Oceanic 6. It is likely Jack as the leader, but maybe some choice he makes to get them off results in Jin being left behind. I just feel like it is significant that only Hurley came to see the baby, only Hurley went to see Jin's grave. This tells me that Sun has had a falling out of sorts with the O6, or at least parts of it. Also, with her bstaying close to Hurley, and his dislike of the unlucky money, it's likely that he gave his part of the settlement to Sun. The lottery money, he gave to his parents, but he definitely could have given Sun the plane money.

[Talontbo]

something bothers me about the Knife... we know young Locke selects it from among the Items Richard lays out... we saw this.. Richard was not a happy camper... correlations???

ti Ben perhaps with his funky smack stick.. and gas canister... perhaps... but more to the point....

I real;ly think Locke is the paradox... and is not perfect.. Richard knows this... wheter from having Jacob tell him.... or having been at Locke's birth/early childhood.. before or after the fact as time travel goes... it really doesn't matter.. Locke failed the test... ok... one item wrong... what the big deal??? right??

it a HUGE deal... it means Locke is not actually who he is supposed to have been.... better than Ben right now??? sure......... but not the perfect "whatever" the Island is looking for...

if Richard travels back... say from after the Crash... 9-22-2004

and we have a Dali Lama deal thingy... past life and all... then the Knife selection is critical to who he isn't!!!!!!

if it is a test of strictly character... then latter... before the crash.. Abbadon influences Locke... by a nudge.... Walk About.. only a knife and your will to survive...


this would be counter to what we as fans perceive Richard was wanting and expecting.. why...

If Richard went after the crash as Sugar has theorized... and Locke is not confirming a past life....but a future one.. then the Knife is a wild card placed there by Abbadon's influence... and could possibly be.... the deciding factor on how Locke Fits In!!!..

remember in season one... Hurley or someone maybe Charlie.. says... Who packs 400 Knives... or something to that effect... knives that came it very useful as we all know... but knives just the same...

there is more to this... and I fear we will not get those answers for quite some time... but I would not be surprised to see... Locke's role as leader..

Short Lived..... and possibly a benefit to Widmore... or Abbadon... in the end....

[lost_grrl]

Originally Posted by sugarnuts

\


Oh yeah, about jacob's list. When ben saw the plane crash he ordered Ethan and Goodwin to get a full list of names of all the passengers. Then mikhail researched everyone's background. Jacob then told Ben who he wanted him to take.
So as you can see, the list was made after 'locke and several others' came to the island so its not contradicting at all.

I have a theory as to why Alpert was involved in John's life as a child.
Heres the timeline: Locke crashes on island. List is made. Locke meets Alpert. Alpert realises john is special. (heres the twist) Alpert then goes back in time, via the orchid station, and studies Locke. The first time Alpert ever ses locke is on the island. He goes to see him as a child AFTER he meets him on the island, he probably got the items for 'the test' from Locke himself

I gotta say, I like that!
Kinda O.T., but I personally feel that Ben shooting Locke was a test...if he dies, then he isn't THE ONE (to steal a phrase from The Matrix), but if he lives, then obviously he is who they have been waiting for. Think about it...there have been some thoughts that he did it because he was jealous of him, but he would really know better.

Speaking of off-topic, this thread has officially gotten very off of the designated topic (Sun and her father) so I am going to move the stuff on that to a new thread. I will PM everyone involved.

[sugarnuts]

Originally Posted by erikau

Sugarnuts, I LOVE that idea. When Alpert gave Locke the test, to me it was obviously a variant on the Dalai Lama test. I think allllll of the items were connected to Locke, or maybe at least all of the ones he touched and carefully considered, and Alpert's test was more of a test of character. A few of the items should have given young Locke a strange feeling of familiarity...the sand, the book, the knife, all should have given young Locke that eerie feeling. Alpert's test was more to gauge the psychological development of young Locke, what kind of person would he be? This is why Richard was angry when Locke chose the knife, yet continued to monitor him and try to steer him towards a life of good and science. He was trying to mold young Locke, so that when older Locke landed, he would be the right kind of person that Alpert needed.

Abaddon could fit in the other way, trying to make sure the Locke that landed on the Island was weak, gullible, or whatever traits would make Locke a thorn in Alpert's side. Also, we still don't know what favor he owes Abaddon...has he already done it? Was taking the walkabout, and thus crashing on the Island, the payback that Abaddon was talking about all along?

I think you are spot on with Abbadons intentions. He suggests a walkabout to John, in which a knife is an essential tool, whereas Alpert gets pissed when john chooses the knife.
this further shows they are on opposite sides.
Abbadon wanted John on the island, but as a different person than the one Alpert needed.

Lost grrl, when ben shot John i dont think it was a test because in Cabin Fever, when John Hurley and Ben 'return to the scene of the crime', ben said that when he shot Locke "I wasn't thinking clearly". which of course could be a misdirection, seeing as its Ben.