Doppelganger 1969

[erikau]

T, all I will say is that I think there is something special about the satellite phones. The Freighties seem very protective of them, but what are they so afraid of? Maybe they know they need to protect them, because whatever technology they contain is the only way to bridge the time gap? They don't fear the Losties using them, but breaking them. Maybe haha.

[Talontbo]

hey Erikua..

that is a good thought... and not outside the realm of possibility....

but I keep thinking...

Doctor washes up... in a condition DEAD.. with the cheek scar.. KNOWN beforehand by us...

and a new injury... Slit throat... not know by us as of yet...

then we see supposedly how it all occurs... after the fact... but clearly we see the doctor dead before the events could have happened.. this is confirmed by the scene of Daniel , Bernard and the Losties on the beach.. receiving the reply.. "Doctor is fine"

and yet we haven't had any indication of such a LARGE TIME DISCREPANCY...

hence my question about Island Fragmentation... various parts of the island are in different TIMES....

or... as I have proposed... we are indeed seeing 2 separate and distinct events.. not related at all... except that they are mirroring each other....

gotta hand it to the writers... they keep us thinking....

[erikau]

I think we pretty much agree on what is going on, but just have different ideas on the specifics. To me, the doctor washing up on the Island before he was killed on the Freighter WAS the big indicator of the time discrepancy. With the rocket test the writers gave us a little taste, but with the doctor they confirmed it: somewhere in between traveling from freighter to Island, something wacky happens haha, because the Island is not in the same time as everything else.

Now, to me the travel is important, and I'll tell you why: the only successful travel to the Island is done in the air. A freighter full of people head towards an Island, yet instead of sailing up and taking over, they HELICOPTER in certain people? Huh? Not that I don't see the strategic reasoning, but why not a submarine? Or a smaller spy boat or something? why air travel?

We know that 815, an air balloon, and at least 2 helicopters have "successfully" crashed onto the Island. The Black Rock we see in the middle of the Island, or at least certainly far enough offshore to say that it didn't shipwreck. It looks like it would have have to have been dropped there, either by some power or a really big freaking wave, to be there. Desmond's boat, well he may have sailed there, but his black-out memory loss during the storm makes that...questionable. How he got his boat, and the race he was on when he crashed, suggests set-up in Desmond's case, so perhaps when he was out of it during the storm his whole boat was transported to the Island (perhaps in a big freighter like we know Widmore owns?).

Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent. But I do see the path to the Island as being full of portals as it may be, which makes getting there and leaving difficult. It is the reason the coordinates are important. You may be right: maybe the cool thing about the Island is that it somehow contains ALL of time within it...so there are inevitable replicas and rifts when outsiders come in.

[Talontbo]

hey Erikua.

all good points.. mode of transportation... hmmm... longer in the Zone.. more chance for discrepancy... can't argue that... an would account for Flight 815 and the Rocket... traveling faster.. to be less effected...OK... thats appears to be doable...

Doctor floating in the tide.. uneaten by sea nasties... in the zone traveling much slower.. ends up.. way ahead in time... Reasonable??? seems as though it could be...

and he arrives at the island in a Future State.. DEAD.. earlier on the day before it happens...????? my head hurts... but this line of thought is not out of the question either... is it????

well done... not sure I like it so much.... but it does explain a lot... if its remotely close to where the show is going....

The longer your in the rain.. the wetter you get!!!

OK... for now I am going to sit with these ideas.... 2 exact events.. 2 outcomes both the same.. but different... they are separate..

and the overall Time Only.. with explanations provided and considered...

I think both these could be very very close....

[fishhead202]

Erikau: I'll be interesting to see if anything happens to Sayid as he boats in.

We also had the 'pirate boat' from season 1, and the sub.

--Fish

[erikau]

Oh Fish I hadn't thought of that, it WILL be interesting to see what happen with the boat and Sayid.

I think the pirate boat from Season 1 was the Black Rock, wasn't it? Also, the submarine exists, but we have no idea of WHERE the Others used it to travel between. If they never tried to take it from Island to Real World, or vice versa, it wouldn't necessarily matter. But still, good thinking.

I think water is important as a catalyst for the time travel. Donnie Darko, which is a movie about time travel and parallel timelines, calls water out as a catalyst, a way to go between. I keep thinking of things we have seen in Lost. When Charlotte Malkin (daughter of Claire's psychic) has a "near death experience," it is because she supposedly drowned. Yet, she awakes, unharmed and with memories of traveling to a strange Island where she met Eko's brother Yemi. Watching the Constant, and seeing how Minkowski's body became "dead' when his consciousness was traveling, it occurred to me that she was probably consciousness traveling when her parents thought she was dead. She was lying in water when it would have happened. Then throughout the Constant, in Desmond's flash-arounds haha, there is a big water theme. His jumps seem to happen when he touches water. He drops a coin in a puddle, and when he goes to pick it up he jumps. When he jumps to boot camp, he awakes in the rain. When he meets the all-knowing Widmore at the auction, Widmore leaves the sink running, and when Des goes to turn it off he is sent back to the present haha. Also, earlier in the series, Desmond described trying to sail away from the Island, but finding that he kept ending up going in circles.

To me, what this all suggests, is that water is somehow important to the time thingy with the Island. Time consciousness travel seems to be facilitated somewhat by water, and the water surrounding the Island has some sort of strange properties.

[rivum]

erickau, i understand what you're saying, and i do understand your x,y graph analogy (as i have a degree in mathematics), but there is one inherent flaw in your analogy, that being that you (as a person) are physically capable of moving your point in space, whereas the island is not. so, if someone were to jump to point f in time, it is very likely that you would be in a different space (like the bathroom!), but if you moved in time, the island would still be in the same space physically. do you get where i'm coming from?

Originally Posted by erikau

Rivum, to be honest is involves physics concepts that I find difficult to explain. The (x,y) graph analogy was the best I could do, but I geuss think of it this way.

Right now I am sitting in a red chair, let's designate it as point x. If you think of location as one dimensional, a dimension of space, then if you looked at the red chair, you would find me there, at point x. HOWEVER, what if you looked at point x, the chair, 15 minutes from now. Would I be there? Maybe. The present is point p, and 15 minutes from then is point f. At point f I will be in the bathroom, because I have to pee haha. Thus, location in this sense is 2 dimensional, the intersection in the planes of SPACE and TIME.

THEREFORE: if you look at the intersection of space and time, point x at point p...you will find me.

BUT, if you look at point x at point f, I will not be there. Thus, it isn;t fair to say that you could always find me at point x, because just because I am there at certain TIMES, does not make that my location. My location is in both TIME and space.

If the ocean is point x, and the Island is me...does it start to clear up? Time travel is a major theme in this show, and we know they are going to "move" the Island. Which makes more "sense" (in as much as anything on Lost makes sense), that Ben is somehow going to physically relocate the Island, or that he is going to move the Island through time? The Island will technically still be at point x...but with the Island now at point f, and the Freighter still at point p in TIME, they won't be in the same location. Same place in space, but different places in time.

Think about it. In the ocean, at point p in time...the Dr. is killed. But on the Island, not too far away in miles...the body had ALREADY WASHED UP. Wow. I would say that this is because although the ship and the Island are relatively close on the plane of Space, they are distant on the plane of Time. The Island, when the body washed up, was literally in the past when compared to the freighter. Same place in space, different places in time. When Daniel asked for the rocket to be fired, there was a 30 minute delay. Once again, the Island could literally be said to have been in the freighter's past. It is the traveling between these gaps in time that is making everything all screwy, and probably also why the Island is "invisible" most of the time. It is there spatially, but distant on the plane of time.

[erikau]

Originally Posted by rivum

erickau, i understand what you're saying, and i do understand your x,y graph analogy (as i have a degree in mathematics), but there is one inherent flaw in your analogy, that being that you (as a person) are physically capable of moving your point in space, whereas the island is not. so, if someone were to jump to point f in time, it is very likely that you would be in a different space (like the bathroom!), but if you moved in time, the island would still be in the same space physically. do you get where i'm coming from?

Exactly. Which is why they move the Island in TIME, not in SPACE. I don't think the geographic location of the Island will move...when it comes time to "hide" the Island, they will hide it in time. The Freighties, while having the ability to arrive at the geographic location of the Island, will be screwed if Ben uses his (or Jacob's, or some other entity of the Island) power to time travel. The Isalnd will still be at point x on the spacial plane, but on the temporal plane the Freighties will be at point p while the Island is at point f. Remember, this Island is SPECIAL. This is HOW I think it is special. As regular people, we can change our location of the spatial plane as we choose, but we are pretty much stuck in our own place in time. As you said, the Island may have a difficult time moving spatially...but moving in TIME...well I guess we will see soon enough.

Remember: Jacob's cabin moves. It shouldn't be able to, like the Island, but it can. Is his cabin growing legs and moving around, or when Jacob wants to remain alone does he "hide" the only place he can: in time?

[rivum]

well, i'm still not following how it moves if you jump around in time.
if it does not move geographically when you move time, then how can it be hidden?

i guess they'll explain what they mean by moving the island soon enough, so this will likely be moot!

[sugarnuts]

Rivum, im also extremely confused, but i think i get what Erikau is saying. If you think of the present now, the island is there with the freighter somewhere of the coast. Then, you move the island in time say, 2 months into the past. If you are on the island when it 'moves', there will be no freighter because it wasn't there 2 months ago.
Then I start to think about whether the island is still where it was before it jumped as well as where it is now. Because if it is, it would still be findable. I guess the island must move in space and time. It must disapear from it's location in the present in order to move to the past.
I cant wait for an explanation on this one because im confused as hell! lol