What if you knew..........

fishhead202 · 05-12-2008, 07:58 AM

One of the things that has my head spinning about last week's episode is who's on who's 'side'.

It seems that the 2 sides are "Jacob, Ben, Others, Richard, Mittelos.........."

On the other, "Widmore, Abadon, Keamy, Naomi, freities, assassins in Iraq.........."

Now I suspect that there are divisions within these groups, and maybe even a 3rd group. When I write it out, it seems to line up better than it does in my head.

However..... the point of this post was about what if you knew that 815 was going to crash.

Assume that at least a few memebers of both sides can timeslip a bit.

Knowing that they're looking for the island, they see that 815 completely disappears. No one can find it anywhere. They know about the island, and figure out that 815 crashes on the island.

Now they slip back in time and begin placing people on 815 that will help to further their goals. This is why Abadon pushes for Locke's walkabout.

I've stated on here a lot that I really hope there is a reason why THESE specific people end up on 815, and this is a theory to support that. I've posted before about how certain people seem to have been manipulated onto the plane (or could have been at least). This could explain the reason why.

Any thoughts?
--Fish

erikau · 05-12-2008, 08:17 AM

I'm on board pretty much 100% with this. Now, I think there are people on teh plane, red shirts, who don't matter. However. many of the flashbacks into Losties lives have shown us that there were very specific circumstances that led them to being on that particular plane. Now that later we are seeing just how much influence the Island has in the "real world," I'm certain that those that seem like they are there for a reason, are there for a reason. Even Boone and Shannon, who died so quickly, had pivotal importance. Boone's death, for instance, caused Locke to pound on the ground, which stopped Desmond from killing himself. So was that a coincidence, or has Locke been right all along and Boone was a "sacrifice the Island demanded"? I would say Locke is right, and there is a plan, and Alpert and Abaddon are in charge of gathering the unsuspecting players.

mugatu22 · 05-12-2008, 11:36 PM

I like this theory. It does seem far too convenient that the Losties are on 815 all by coincidence. Much of it does seem pre-planned by someone...the "group" that includes Abbaddon, Widmore and even the psychic in Australia all seem to know something is going to happen, helping push these people into their destiny.

The million-dollar question is, as you said, this: who's who? And who's in which group?

Even if you did know 815 was going to crash, it seems like a LOT of luck to still get all of these people on the plane without some serious external force. Abbaddon, for example, simply tells Locke he should try a walk-about...but he doesn't force him to do it. He just suggests it, and then Locke goes for it. That seems like a big risk to take, hoping Locke will follow the suggestion, if they were relying on Locke crashing onto the island.

rivum · 05-13-2008, 09:42 AM

furthermore, he never suggests when locke should take the walkabout.
i would imagine he could have done so many times during a year.
if there were some influence to get locke on that particular flight, there had to be more than just abbaddon's suggestion to take a walkabout at some point in his life.

lost_grrl · 05-13-2008, 11:12 AM

I like it. Otherwise, as mugatu22 says, it is far too convenient for all of these specific people to have been on the plane.

Here's an interesting thought that will almost certainly not occur---what if after this Lost end in 2010, they start all over and tell the story from another group of the survivors? I am finding it more and more humorous as time goes by that these people are totally irrelevant to the lives of our Losties. It is one of the few things on Lost that rings untrue (along with Kate's bogus trial).

Talontbo · 05-13-2008, 11:32 AM

hey Rivum,

if you were to take any flight.. leaving any city.. and analyzed the passengers before.. just to see how many actually had some type of connection to one another.. yo may be surprised..you may not..

I was friends with the brother of one of the survivors of Air Florida Flight 90.. as a matter of fact they lived just up the same street from me.. and we all attended the same schools... connections... everywhere.. small small world..

but Flight 815 is a bit different.. as it originated in a Foreign Country.. and to have the multitude of connections we are seeing seems perhaps a bit over the top.... tot he point.. that it almost is not to be believed as a possible everyday coincidence.. there are just way way to many... on a normal flight from Australia to the U.S. You may find perhaps a hand full of cross paths connections... such as...

Passenger A may have gone to elementary school with Passenger B's cousin... or Passenger C may have worked for a company owned by Passenger D's Uncle... or any number of very similar things.. but the odds of such a large amount of survivors all having some elaborately woven crossed paths connections??? I don't see it..

this is not happenstance..

as for Abbaddon... think about how Fishhead used the word Timeslip...

if... Abbaddon had slip to the future.. and seen the need for Locke to be there... then perhaps all it takes is that Suggestion.. at that moment at the top of the stairs.. to know.. that would be all it would take to get Locke at that place a that time... Because he would have had advanced knowledge...

where the real problem lies.. is not with Locke... but the rest of the Survivors.. as of right now... because we don't have that same.. Abbaddon influence as of yet.. and still...

why does jack go to Australia??? To get his Dad... why??? Jack ruined his careerer.. Why??? Daddy was drinking... and Jack was also having marital problems and jealously problems.. this points to Sara... The women jack opted to save over Shannons dying Father in the same car accident...

this points now to Shannon... in Australia... because Daddy is dead.. and she is cut off by Stepmommy... Shannon is doing a long standing con on Boone... so that one car accident has not provided for Jack, Shannon and Boone.. to be in Sidney... not to mention Jack's dead Father. who we knwo.. took Analucia... and web gets bigger and bigger...

advanced knowledge... and yet.. all the survivors.. with 3 exceptions... haven't pulled it together... I say 3.. maybe a 4th.. but Libby is dead.. she knew Hurley... but never let on I don't think...

Sawyer confirms to Jack.. he met his Father... before the crash... Desmond and Jack...

I do not count Desmond and Charlie.. because if you go back and rewatch where Charlie is singing in the rain.. and helps Nadia.. Desmond isn't there.. this was added for Desmond's Flash....

I can't remember Charlie ever seeing the Picture of Nadia that Sayid carries.. or Locke seeing it... Hurley owns a Box Company.. but does he even really know its name>>> I doubt it... His Financial Manager would though.. so for Hurley to recognize Locke as a former employee is remote...

but again.. that they haven't all pulled it all together is not so unusual... a lot has been occupying their time from the moment they crashed.. we see flash backs.. but they haven't really had a ton of Open Up To Your Friend Moments... you know like:::

Desmond.. "If you don't mind my asking brother... so how did you come to be a torturer?"
Sayid... "When I was in the Republican Guard, I was captured.. and the Americans were looking for a downed pilot, because i could speak English and my superior officer was the focus of the interrogation.. an Army Intelligence officer named Kelvin showed me a video of my village.. a village that was gassed by this Superior Officer I once served under.. he was offering me an opportunity to exact revenge and helping me secure my freedom"
Desmond..."Did you say Kelvin" "you must be mistaken brother"

but we haven't had these moments.. sadly... In the first and second seasons.. when the show was using the flashbacks to spin these connections between all the survivors.. I kept thinking... when are they going to start realizing they have these amazing crossover stories.. these cross paths that just can't be... but the writers never really went there... or they haven't yet... I for one.. would love to start seeing it... but I am afraid the story has advanced way to far...

erikau · 05-13-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rivum

furthermore, he never suggests when locke should take the walkabout.
i would imagine he could have done so many times during a year.
if there were some influence to get locke on that particular flight, there had to be more than just abbaddon's suggestion to take a walkabout at some point in his life.

I think you have to take into account the theme of Destiny in the show. Abaddon's suggestion WAS enough, enough to get Locke on the path he was SUPPOSED to take. Remmeber, even though there is destiny, there is free will as well. Abaddon could only plant the seed, Locke had to do the rest himself. However, you cannot deny the amount of "seeds" that were planted to get our central Losties on the Island.

Think of later on in Cabin Fever, when Locke is giving Hurley the option of staying with them or going back with the other Losties. After Hurley says he will stay and walks out of earshot, Ben makes a comment like, "Isn't it cute how he thinks it was his decision to stay?" Now, a lot of people have just taken this as Ben trying to show Locke that he can also be manipulative in his own way. However, Locke was not being manipulative, he was being sincere, and Ben knows that about Locke's character. Thus, I took it not as Ben implying that Locke somehow got Hurley to stay with reverse psychology or something, but instead that Ben knew what Hurley would choose because it was his destiny to stay. Ben was saying that Hurley couldn't have made any other decision...his destiny was to go with them to the cabin.

Thus, I think that our Losties paths to the Island were inevitable. I think that if Locke would not have taken Abaddon's clue about the walkabout, the powers that be would have found some new way to ensure he was on that flight. It is a bizarre mix of free will and destiny, but one that I like.

rivum · 05-14-2008, 06:42 AM

yeah, that's all fine and good, but what if locke signed up for a different walkabout that the same company had scheduled for a month later? he never would have been on 815.
i guess, ultimately, what i'm saying then is that i don't believe in fate! lol

fishhead202 · 05-14-2008, 06:51 AM

Thanks for the comments. I agree that destiny is a big part of the show (last week's episode really pushed that point), however, I would still love to see some people pulling the strings, or some explanation instead of a great coincidence. Someone mentioned the redshirts that died during the crash. For a while, I was really hoping for a 'redshirt flashback'. Someone who had some connections to others on the plane, then at the end of the episode, we see that they died in the crash. OK, still think this might be a cool idea

BUT, after seeing how much of a consciousness the island has, I think it's possible for the island to have chosen who was going to live, those people it needed or had a use for.

A while ago, I'd posted a theory about how certain people could have manipulated situations to get the 815ers on the plane. I honestly don't even remember them all anymore

I think that you need to look at who might be the folks in the shadows. Christian, Mr. Paik, Widmore, Abaddon, Ben.........

If this theory is correct, I can imagine some awesome scenes that verify it. Imagine the scene where Locke is told he can't go on the walkabout (where we first learned he was in the wheelchair). Bus driver walks out after telling Locke and picks up a cell phone, "OK, I left him, but he's not happy. He's going to want a refund" Flashed to the other end of the phone and it's Abaddon "We'll make sure he's taken good care of".

Oh the possibilities

Did Ben know who was on 815 prior to the crash?

Cheers,
--Fish

erikau · 05-14-2008, 06:58 AM

Fish, a lot of mythology used to personify Fate. Destiny was not an intangible concept, but were immortal beings. It was there jobs to cut people's life lines when their time was up, but also to make sure that people didn't stray too far off of their paths. Maybe the Lost writers are playing with the old idea, having Alpert and Abaddon working as sort of the hands of fate?

As far as Ben knowing, he did not seem shocked in the episode where Juliet tells him a spinal surgeon was one of the survivors of the crash. This was conveniently shortly after he found out he had a tumor, but when Juliet tells him the good news of Jack being there, Ben doesn't bat an eye. Maybe he didn't know everyone who would be on 815, but I'd say Jacob or whoever promised him that Jack (or some other doctor) would be brought to help him.

05-12-2008, 07:58 AM	#1
fishhead202 Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 445	What if you knew.......... One of the things that has my head spinning about last week's episode is who's on who's 'side'. It seems that the 2 sides are "Jacob, Ben, Others, Richard, Mittelos.........." On the other, "Widmore, Abadon, Keamy, Naomi, freities, assassins in Iraq.........." Now I suspect that there are divisions within these groups, and maybe even a 3rd group. When I write it out, it seems to line up better than it does in my head. However..... the point of this post was about what if you knew that 815 was going to crash. Assume that at least a few memebers of both sides can timeslip a bit. Knowing that they're looking for the island, they see that 815 completely disappears. No one can find it anywhere. They know about the island, and figure out that 815 crashes on the island. Now they slip back in time and begin placing people on 815 that will help to further their goals. This is why Abadon pushes for Locke's walkabout. I've stated on here a lot that I really hope there is a reason why THESE specific people end up on 815, and this is a theory to support that. I've posted before about how certain people seem to have been manipulated onto the plane (or could have been at least). This could explain the reason why. Any thoughts? --Fish

05-13-2008, 11:12 AM	#5
lost_grrl Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Earth...I think Posts: 1,117	I like it. Otherwise, as mugatu22 says, it is far too convenient for all of these specific people to have been on the plane. Here's an interesting thought that will almost certainly not occur---what if after this Lost end in 2010, they start all over and tell the story from another group of the survivors? I am finding it more and more humorous as time goes by that these people are totally irrelevant to the lives of our Losties. It is one of the few things on Lost that rings untrue (along with Kate's bogus trial). __________________

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

05-12-2008, 08:17 AM	#2
erikau Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 278	I'm on board pretty much 100% with this. Now, I think there are people on teh plane, red shirts, who don't matter. However. many of the flashbacks into Losties lives have shown us that there were very specific circumstances that led them to being on that particular plane. Now that later we are seeing just how much influence the Island has in the "real world," I'm certain that those that seem like they are there for a reason, are there for a reason. Even Boone and Shannon, who died so quickly, had pivotal importance. Boone's death, for instance, caused Locke to pound on the ground, which stopped Desmond from killing himself. So was that a coincidence, or has Locke been right all along and Boone was a "sacrifice the Island demanded"? I would say Locke is right, and there is a plan, and Alpert and Abaddon are in charge of gathering the unsuspecting players.

05-12-2008, 11:36 PM	#3
mugatu22 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Southern California Posts: 257	I like this theory. It does seem far too convenient that the Losties are on 815 all by coincidence. Much of it does seem pre-planned by someone...the "group" that includes Abbaddon, Widmore and even the psychic in Australia all seem to know something is going to happen, helping push these people into their destiny. The million-dollar question is, as you said, this: who's who? And who's in which group? Even if you did know 815 was going to crash, it seems like a LOT of luck to still get all of these people on the plane without some serious external force. Abbaddon, for example, simply tells Locke he should try a walk-about...but he doesn't force him to do it. He just suggests it, and then Locke goes for it. That seems like a big risk to take, hoping Locke will follow the suggestion, if they were relying on Locke crashing onto the island.

05-13-2008, 09:42 AM	#4
rivum Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 120	furthermore, he never suggests when locke should take the walkabout. i would imagine he could have done so many times during a year. if there were some influence to get locke on that particular flight, there had to be more than just abbaddon's suggestion to take a walkabout at some point in his life.

05-13-2008, 11:32 AM	#6
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 508	hey Rivum, if you were to take any flight.. leaving any city.. and analyzed the passengers before.. just to see how many actually had some type of connection to one another.. yo may be surprised..you may not.. I was friends with the brother of one of the survivors of Air Florida Flight 90.. as a matter of fact they lived just up the same street from me.. and we all attended the same schools... connections... everywhere.. small small world.. but Flight 815 is a bit different.. as it originated in a Foreign Country.. and to have the multitude of connections we are seeing seems perhaps a bit over the top.... tot he point.. that it almost is not to be believed as a possible everyday coincidence.. there are just way way to many... on a normal flight from Australia to the U.S. You may find perhaps a hand full of cross paths connections... such as... Passenger A may have gone to elementary school with Passenger B's cousin... or Passenger C may have worked for a company owned by Passenger D's Uncle... or any number of very similar things.. but the odds of such a large amount of survivors all having some elaborately woven crossed paths connections??? I don't see it.. this is not happenstance.. as for Abbaddon... think about how Fishhead used the word Timeslip... if... Abbaddon had slip to the future.. and seen the need for Locke to be there... then perhaps all it takes is that Suggestion.. at that moment at the top of the stairs.. to know.. that would be all it would take to get Locke at that place a that time... Because he would have had advanced knowledge... where the real problem lies.. is not with Locke... but the rest of the Survivors.. as of right now... because we don't have that same.. Abbaddon influence as of yet.. and still... why does jack go to Australia??? To get his Dad... why??? Jack ruined his careerer.. Why??? Daddy was drinking... and Jack was also having marital problems and jealously problems.. this points to Sara... The women jack opted to save over Shannons dying Father in the same car accident... this points now to Shannon... in Australia... because Daddy is dead.. and she is cut off by Stepmommy... Shannon is doing a long standing con on Boone... so that one car accident has not provided for Jack, Shannon and Boone.. to be in Sidney... not to mention Jack's dead Father. who we knwo.. took Analucia... and web gets bigger and bigger... advanced knowledge... and yet.. all the survivors.. with 3 exceptions... haven't pulled it together... I say 3.. maybe a 4th.. but Libby is dead.. she knew Hurley... but never let on I don't think... Sawyer confirms to Jack.. he met his Father... before the crash... Desmond and Jack... I do not count Desmond and Charlie.. because if you go back and rewatch where Charlie is singing in the rain.. and helps Nadia.. Desmond isn't there.. this was added for Desmond's Flash.... I can't remember Charlie ever seeing the Picture of Nadia that Sayid carries.. or Locke seeing it... Hurley owns a Box Company.. but does he even really know its name>>> I doubt it... His Financial Manager would though.. so for Hurley to recognize Locke as a former employee is remote... but again.. that they haven't all pulled it all together is not so unusual... a lot has been occupying their time from the moment they crashed.. we see flash backs.. but they haven't really had a ton of Open Up To Your Friend Moments... you know like::: Desmond.. "If you don't mind my asking brother... so how did you come to be a torturer?" Sayid... "When I was in the Republican Guard, I was captured.. and the Americans were looking for a downed pilot, because i could speak English and my superior officer was the focus of the interrogation.. an Army Intelligence officer named Kelvin showed me a video of my village.. a village that was gassed by this Superior Officer I once served under.. he was offering me an opportunity to exact revenge and helping me secure my freedom" Desmond..."Did you say Kelvin" "you must be mistaken brother" but we haven't had these moments.. sadly... In the first and second seasons.. when the show was using the flashbacks to spin these connections between all the survivors.. I kept thinking... when are they going to start realizing they have these amazing crossover stories.. these cross paths that just can't be... but the writers never really went there... or they haven't yet... I for one.. would love to start seeing it... but I am afraid the story has advanced way to far...

05-14-2008, 06:42 AM	#8
rivum Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 120	yeah, that's all fine and good, but what if locke signed up for a different walkabout that the same company had scheduled for a month later? he never would have been on 815. i guess, ultimately, what i'm saying then is that i don't believe in fate! lol

05-14-2008, 06:51 AM	#9
fishhead202 Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 445	Thanks for the comments. I agree that destiny is a big part of the show (last week's episode really pushed that point), however, I would still love to see some people pulling the strings, or some explanation instead of a great coincidence. Someone mentioned the redshirts that died during the crash. For a while, I was really hoping for a 'redshirt flashback'. Someone who had some connections to others on the plane, then at the end of the episode, we see that they died in the crash. OK, still think this might be a cool idea BUT, after seeing how much of a consciousness the island has, I think it's possible for the island to have chosen who was going to live, those people it needed or had a use for. A while ago, I'd posted a theory about how certain people could have manipulated situations to get the 815ers on the plane. I honestly don't even remember them all anymore I think that you need to look at who might be the folks in the shadows. Christian, Mr. Paik, Widmore, Abaddon, Ben......... If this theory is correct, I can imagine some awesome scenes that verify it. Imagine the scene where Locke is told he can't go on the walkabout (where we first learned he was in the wheelchair). Bus driver walks out after telling Locke and picks up a cell phone, "OK, I left him, but he's not happy. He's going to want a refund" Flashed to the other end of the phone and it's Abaddon "We'll make sure he's taken good care of". Oh the possibilities Did Ben know who was on 815 prior to the crash? Cheers, --Fish

05-14-2008, 06:58 AM	#10
erikau Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 278	Fish, a lot of mythology used to personify Fate. Destiny was not an intangible concept, but were immortal beings. It was there jobs to cut people's life lines when their time was up, but also to make sure that people didn't stray too far off of their paths. Maybe the Lost writers are playing with the old idea, having Alpert and Abaddon working as sort of the hands of fate? As far as Ben knowing, he did not seem shocked in the episode where Juliet tells him a spinal surgeon was one of the survivors of the crash. This was conveniently shortly after he found out he had a tumor, but when Juliet tells him the good news of Jack being there, Ben doesn't bat an eye. Maybe he didn't know everyone who would be on 815, but I'd say Jacob or whoever promised him that Jack (or some other doctor) would be brought to help him.