Losties and Native Fathers?

[fishhead202]

Tal, I totally understand what you're saying. But you have to admit.... that was a weird look. After watching that, I thought 'Darleton wants that to creep into our mind.' I think that they're aware they've put that question on the table now. If watching that scene, they realized it could create such confusion (and I have faith that they would realize this), I think they'd re-shoot it. There's enough going on without sending out the WRONG questions.

Like I said, I really am not in one camp or the other. I can see Locke's dad being Cooper, Richard, someone else, or nobody.......

--Fish

[Talontbo]

hey Erikua.

Dude???? Ok...

We know Cooper is a conman.. this is fact in evidence.. that he needed to Con a Kidney.. from..

A son he abandoned.. has been part of the total exchange and Flashback sequences of the Locke story line... Com man or not... it is not unreasonable to consider.. as a Con man.. and knowing human nature as most Con men do and must.. That his Son.. was not going to just hand over a kidney... Think about it.. put yourself in Locke's shoes for just a moment.. daddy shows up some 45ish yrs later.. Hey son.. I need a kidney.. how about you do me a favor????

I don't think so.... so the con was on... as was explained in the various episodes...as Flashbacks..

as for the correlation you like to point to between the Real Actors Age and their Characters age... this must be questioned... They are actors.. paid to represent a fictional character... That casting did not do a great job with Coopers age should be taken as any kind of evidence... People age at different rates anyway.. all of us could easily point to people that look exceedingly older than chronological year.. or exceedingly younger than chronological years... Those two actors... only represent the established Bio's of the people they are portraying...

Not to mention...Older Emily Locke... as is in evidence... has had a somewhat harder life... she has had mental problems and history of substance abuse...

***** Lostpedia*****
Emily was admitted several times to the Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute for a treatable type of schizophrenia. She is addicted to drugs; however, it is unknown if the addiction is related to her treatment.

*******
easily a factor to consider for a more ragged appearance of her aging more rapidly...
And to include.. Cooper by the shows own story line.. Is a man of means.. he has his own nurses and private treatment.. lives in style and comfort... needing for nothing accept a kidney... and htis can easily account for the reduce speed of aging we see...


Pushing Locke out the window... Here is a man that has abandoned a child at birth.. lived a life of Conning people... and is the prime suspect in the murder of the son of his newest mark....

And he wouldn't push a son out the window??? to protect his own way of life and freedom?? he has spent a life pushing people out windows.. with no remorse... Sawyer is evidence of this... Push a son out the window that by his own words.. "Wasn't Wanted" sorry... your thought here is off the target... Of course he would... and would do it again given the opportunity.. Thats his nature...

The Kidney... fact is... Cooper was on dialysis.. we saw this... it wasn't some ruse to remove Locke's kidney.. That it played a part in future events.. yes.. we do have that.. whether by design or not... it does come into play...

and yet.. Ben... how knows all about John Locke.. shot Locke at point blank range.. Locke is a spinning target.. and is hit.. and Ben.. with all his knowledge.. fails to complete the job.. for whatever reason.. Ben left Locke for dead.. and was secure in the fact he would die laying in that mass grave...

so by some quirk of circumstance.. Cooper has saved John's life does not negate Coopers need for a Kidney that matches... his son's kidney..

as for the destiny master plan thing... I accept this show is presenting a vast amount of plot absolutely directed towards those paths we all take in our lives.. and the characters on the show have taken, are taking and will take... whether by choice or manipulations...

what I don't need is to ignore some of the dots to arrive at a picture that isn't there...

I don't need Richard to be Locke's father just because he showed up at a hospital well after the birth... and because of a simple look Grandma made.. nor do I need it to be so.. just because Cooper needed a kidney and it was that that ultimately saved Locks life... makes Richard his father and not Cooper....

you say I am to literal.. perhaps the opposite could be said of you... to liberal...

and do not always take thing exactly as presented.. I am more than willing to entertain Ideas that have even a slight amount of supporting information... Richard being Locke's father???

well it just does not..

as for the secondary side of your theory.. the Raised by another.. or Abandoned Child Syndrome.. I happily step up and support this as I have said... and it tends to be pretty convincing.. with few exceptions and those exceptions are all O6 now.... so they have left the Island... Hurley.. Cabin... Jack.. Christian.. Kate.. Daddy...Sun... never saw anything.. but now is raising Yi Jeon alone???? Sayid... we really don;t know.. but he other than Walt.. who could have still been on the Island.. hasn't seen anything...

so.. again I reiterate.... it is not that I do not want to consider Richard... I just find it very difficult when examining all the know evidence to the contrary.... sorry.. I really.. I have spent many hours.. scouring the episodes... looking for the lsightest clues that may help back up your theory.. and have come away with just the opposite... where Fatherhood is concerned.... it just is...

.

[lost_grrl]

Originally Posted by erikau

T, sometimes I think you are purposefully obtuse. SHE WAS LYING. She knew who he was, that was obvious, and that is what we are all saying. She was being a priggish snob, not wanting to admit that a 30ish looking year old man fathered her 17 year old's bastard. In the 1950s that was SUPER taboo, and she was ashamed. You say her look was one of being confused, but you are the only one in this thread that has said that. I think it was OBVIOUS that she recognized him, so if he isn't Locke's father then where does she know him from? You are in the minority in believing her when she said she did not know who the man was, although she was clearly distressed to see him there.

Where did I say that Grandma Locke DID NOT know who Alpert was? I said then EXACT opposite, that she did know him and recognized him at the hospital, but didn't wish to acknowledge a man she saw as ruining her daughter's life.

I don't know if I have ever agreed with anyone more than I do about your statement!

[Talontbo]

hey Fish..

I did not find the look all that unusual considering the entire scene.. and the nature of the woman up to that point..

That said.. I think it would be really cool to see Richard as more than he has been... and I searched for hours trying to glean even the slightest hint he could be more to Locke... but I came away just the opposite...

I came away knowing he isn't Locke's father.. what also perplexes me... how.. a developing 6-7 year old boy.. when faced with a rather unusual request... by a rather distinctive looking man.. after failing a test and being humiliated.. and questioned by his Foster mother... would not have the slightest bit of recognition when he finally meets Richard again all these years later...

But he doesn't... OK... I don't get... but he didn't....

we have the season 3 DVD that provides us with insight to who Richard is and what his function is.. we see Richard in all manner of time.. UnChanged.. not aging... and doing his work... for the island???? one could easily argue... Richard knew in 1957 that Locke was the reincarnation of the person previously the leader of the island.. and that Locke would assume control from Ben... Richard could be this omnipresent.. is he??? I don't know..

what I get the feeling of...

Richard is more than we have been told... a lot more... more than a person fathering a child... as a matter of thought.. I almost get the feeling Richard doesn't really even wish to concern himself with such things... as we see... he thinks Ben has become obsessed with getting pregnant on the Island... I wonder why????? Alex maybe.. Alex and Carl??? protecting Alex... who is now dead... but could that have been the real reason>>>> perhaps... but Richard... I don;t see him as even remotely interested in such things.. from any point of view... regardless of what I want or think would be a neat way the show could go...

[lost_grrl]

Originally Posted by erikau

Dude, you argue against yourself and don't even realize it. Why doesn't she confront him and question him? Because SHE KNOWS WHO HE IS. If she was that puzzled, and didn't know who he was, then I agree she would have questioned the man staring at her new grandson like a piece of meat, at least for the sake of curiosity. She doesn't look curious, she looks disturbed, to see him there. Whether Locke's father or not, she knew Alpert somehow.

Also, I don't use one moment, but I have argued the rest of it many times already and no longer feel the need to repeat myself. Anthony Cooper was a conman, and I have no reason to take his word and the word of an ex-Santa Rosa patient who ADMITS to being paid to LIE, over evidence.

But fine, more? Did Anthony Cooper look like he was almost 20 years older than the older Emily Locke? If Em Locke was 17 around 1957, making her birth date about 1940, that would make her almost 50 in the Man from Tallahassee. Anthony Cooper DOES NOT look 70 to me, although he has white hair, 70 is pretty old. He doesn't look much older than Emily Locke, so I really question that he is old enough that her mother would have said, "He is twice your age." Richard Alpert, however, did look twice her age.

Also, conman or not, what kind of father can push his blood out a freaking window? I know it is possible, but to me, that was the ultimate show of Cooper's true self. He didn't hesitate to try and kill Locke, and estranged or not, I have a hard time seeing a man do that to his flesh and blood. Circumstantial, yes, but no more so than everything else.

Finally, you assume that Locke's kidney removal was just that, a kidney removal. Yet as I have already argued, and you have ignored, that the operation had nothing to do with a kidney. Whether Cooper somehow worked for someone attached to the Island, or was used as a pawn, the fact of the matter is that that operation was NECESSARY for Locke;s destiny. Without Anthony Cooper: Locke doesn't get an operation to remove his kidney, so later Ben's gunshot may have killed him. Also, without Anthony Cooper: Locke never gets pushed out a window, never gets paralyzed, never meets Abaddon at physical therapy, never goes on the walkabout, never gets turned away from the walkabout, never crashes on the Island. I guess to accept my theory you have to accept that there IS a master plan, a destiny, but I think that is becoming clear. All in all though, Anthony Cooper was NECESSARY to Locke's destiny, and just like the Island uses its influence later on Michael and Jack to guide their lives, it did so for John Locke. I find it more than coincidental that we have two Santa Rosa patients, Emily and Libby, who both somehow end up causing people to crash on the Island.

You choose to take things exactly as they are presented to you, despite the fact that the writers tell you flat out that Cooper is a conman and Em Locke was paid to work with him. Also, you seem to chose to ignore the idea of destiny in Lost, and that's fine, but I think you fail to connect dots because of it. Common themes are themes for a reason.

Again...

As I pointed out earlier, the actors used to portray Locke's parents in "The Man From Tallahassee" are almost the exact same age, not 16 years apart.

And Talontbo wasn't around here for it, but there was heated discussion over whether or not the con on John included him being told that TMFT was his father. Obviously there was some thought, even then, that TMFT wasn't John's real father.

And I have already explained the PI thing, to a reasonable enough degree to make it possible.

Erik, you mention something that is a great point...Talontbo keeps asking "Why would Richard just leave his child" "why would he not have freaked out when he found out that Ben had tried to hurt him?" Those questions are moot when you consider that Cooper PUSHED JOHN OUT OF A FREAKIN' WINDOW!!!!!!! Nobody here is taking home the Father of The Year prize.

[Talontbo]

Lost_grl..

just because you love a good bandwagon to hop on... and gang up... still does not make Erikua correct...

obtuse.. OK..

and yet.. I tend to allow for a greater evaluation of all theories... I spend the time rewatching..and considering... I look at whole scenes.. and relevant correlations.. i provide known evidence... supported by the show... and what is viewable.. I list it..

that on this subject I can't leap to the fantastical.. the unbelievable... if that makes me obtuse... so be it....

it still does not diminish the amount of evidence I list to support an opposite conclusion....

[Talontbo]

Lost_grl

by your own word,... The actors used to portray the character Emily Locke and Anthony Cooper are almost the same age...

and that means what???

you both use a perception of visual age.. and yet fail to even consider.

Emily Locke has aged faster.. do to a harder life.. Drugs and mental Illness
Anthony Cooper.. w have seen.. live a life a luxury.. extravagance and wealth.. private nurses.. a home with security.. fine spirits and opulence... clearly a factor in aging more slowly... so how does two actors of the same age looking so different on a show impact what we have been told and know to be the actual facts and time lines of the characters??? it doesn't...

very weak.... try again...

[lost_grrl]

I am not bandwagon jumping here...I saw an interesting theory and thought it merited further exploration. I fully allow for the fact that erik and I could be DEAD WRONG!

And as far as the ages, in that exact post where I pointed out that they are nearly the exact same age (1 month apart) in real life, I also admitted that tv and film frequently ignore the actor's ages when casting--and even gave two examples!

I used that point as a possible clue, not an absolute indicator.

Even if you deny the native father theory, you MUST admit that there was something strange to Mrs. Locke's reaction to Albert! If she really had never sen him, she would have dismissed the nurses question out of hand...but the look...that was a strange look to give a "stranger" who just happened to be looking in a nursery window at a hospital.

[Talontbo]

hey Lost_grl.

I am pretty sure I have not ruled out all other possible Island Daddy's.. just Locke's... as not being Richard...


Grandma Locke.. indeed... strange look... but not a look of a mother.. who.. on the surface.. and from the opening seen.. seems to have had some knowledge of who HIM was....

again.. Emily is 6 months pregnant.. not a week... not even a month... 6 months... and professes her Love.. for this man.... I just can't even begin to imagine a mother.. even a bad mother.. in the mid to late 50's... letting a relationship go own without having down something... that alone just floors me...

Grandma say.. Your not going out with HIM, are you,.??..... and it just sounds like she has met him.. she knows he is at least twice Emily age.. and she doesn't like it one bit...

but yes.. the look she had is strange to say the least.. but not in a I Know You Kind of way.....

the impression I got... Confusion.. Fear maybe... Momentary Blankness of Thought...

but not recognition.. I just don't see that...

and the listed indicators that Locke's dad is Anthony Copper... and Older Emily is his mother.. are many....


but I understand... it is a theory... and who knows... someway.. somehow... some Islander could actually be someones parent.. I wouldn't rule that out at all....

for instance.. I did place a post responding to the Calire's babies daddy... I said.. We haven't seem him....

But I am pretty sure I never said... we will never see him....

Walt's daddy... yeah... gotta stick with Michael here.... only because.. He is so sure....

[lost_grrl]

Just a couple of quick things...I don't dispute that Emily is Locke's mother. And remember, she has some problems, one of them being drugs--and if she would take money to set her son up to lose his kidney to Coop, why wouldn't she go that extra step--for more dough--and lie about him being his pop?