Losties and Native Fathers?

[Talontbo]

hey Sugarnuts..

how would he know it is a match??? I don't recall Cooper asking Locke for a blood test.. do you??? How would Cooper know Locke would match??? before hand that is... you know.. before even starting the con.....

Cooper knew he was Locke's Father.. thats how.,.. Con or Not... he wanted and needed a Kidney... was unwilling to wait for a donor.. he had no choice but to search out a family member... who best.. a son he knew about but never took interest in... perfect... and still that wasn't a guarantee of a match...

but still the most obvious is being ignored..

Richard, Ben, Emily, Cooper, P.I.... all confirm in one form or another.. Cooper was Locke's father... how can this so easily be dismissed???

and to address you thought of a Con...

yes,,, it was a Con... The Con of a son.. A father conning his son.. his son he hadn't seen... ever... conning him out of a kidney.. why... because the son would not have freely provided it to him... a con had to be in place... Locke was stroked.. and played.. and scooby-do'd.... By the Father who never cared about him... But a father just the same...

[erikau]

T, I think that your whole outlook on Lost is based too firmly in the likely and rational to be open to a theory like this. In my Lost universe, the one in which guns don't fire when you try to kill yourself, and where a group of seemingly unrelated people end up on a doomed flight together, the Island or Jacob or whatever the influencing entity is DOES have a pervasive amount of influence. Alpert and Ben wanted Juliet on the Island, she couldn't because of meanie ex husband, BAM! bus takes him out. Young Emily Locke tries to run away from home, which would probably mean she wouldn't have to give up baby Locke and would raise him herself, but BAM! car takes her out, momma gets involved, little Locke is raised in foster homes.

So these examples, and many others, tell me that the Island does have a master plan, AND the influence to see that plan to fruition. DESTINY, a main theme in this show. Thus, to me, if it was necessary that Locke have his kidney removed so that his jealous little brother Ben couldn't kill him, then the Island's influence could ensure that the Locke/Cooper/Swoozie drama could happen. As I have also stated before, Swoozie Kurtz as Emily Locke was a former patient at Santa Rosa. Libby was a former patient at Santa Rosa. Swoozie leads Locke to Cooper, which takes his kidney and causes him to meet Abaddon at therapy, which causes him to be depressed enough to go on the Walkabout, which puts him on the Island. Libby gave Desmond a boat, which stranded him on the Island. Perhaps Santa Rosa is a common tie between the Island's spies/workers. Basically what I am trying to say is, however unlikely, if the Island wants it to be so it is. It used Libby to get Desmond where it needed him, and fake Mama Locke and Cooper to get Locke where he needed to be.

As I have said to you before in other threads on similar topics, I didn't see that test that Alpert gave Locke as a cut and dried Reincarnation Test. If it was about shared memory, then the drawing that Locke did of Smokey should have been a damn good clue for Alpert. If Locke had truly "failed" the test, why would Alpert still be after him several years later, offering him another chance at the Mittelos science camp? I think, and I know you will disagree haha, that the test Alpert gave Locke has less to do with uncovering memories that he already KNEW Locke had, and more it was a test of personality, the type pf character his abandoned son had. At 5 or 6, Locke chose the knife, dashing the hopes of Richard the proud father, But, instead of giving up, he lets more time go by to see if Locke is finally ready to accept his destiny. Locke is not, he denies his natural gifts, yet STILL he is finally brought to the Island. Does this sound like anyone has given up on Locke? Or does it sound like despite his failures at the tests they have given him, the Natives still believe in his value? They believe in him SO strongly, because he is one of them.

Also, one of the things that has ALWAYS struck me as out of place is when Cooper is brought to the Island to be killed by Locke. Morality is a heavy theme on Lost, and I don't see HOW Locke could have remained untainted and in Communion with the Island if he had truly murdered his father. Now I know Sawyer doing it got him out of it, BUT if Sawyer wouldn't have Locke would have had to. He couldn't, we know this, but WHY would the Natives use this as a test when they were so clearly viewing Locke as a savior of sorts? Why would they put a blemish on their savior? They wouldn't, so I have always wondered WHY Locke would be allowed to get away with killing Cooper on the Island.

BECAUSE, Lost shows us there are gray areas to morality. While most killing will get you Smokiefied, Ben and Locke get away with killing two people: their "fathers." This is because the Island tested them through these con men, to see if they could find their true paths still. The killing of the fake fathers was crucial, symbolic, to accepting their new/true selves. This is why is it okay for Roger Linus and Anthony Cooper to be murdered on the Island, when we know this is typically a big no-no for our Losties.

[Talontbo]

hey Erikua,

in you opening you explain it very nicely in but a few brief words..

"In my Lost Universe"

"My" as in yours...

accepting that guns sometimes fail to fire.. or that the World truly is a small place, That Emily Locke IS NOT SWOOZIE... But is in fact Emily Locke...

Your Lost universe is a very forgiving place..

I have now listed in previous posts hard evidence.. statements from the main players we are discussing and general undeniable impression...That say the same thing..

Richard Alpert is not Locke's Biological Father...

Ben Killed his father... where is his morality gray or not?, and though conveniently denies ordering the death of Dharma he was its lone survivor and must take some actual responsibility, morally or otherwise, and it would seem.. someone is trying to put Ben to the block... to answer for those DEATHS..??? and why must Locke have a morality more vaulted than Ben's??? or even equal to??

Richard was instrumental in the Dharma mass murder.. how do you account for his lack of maralty and being in tune with the Island..

This is a weak argument...

Your totally dismissing the facts right before your eye... Solid Facts and with scant argument to refute them...

The test given to young Locke was and is used to this day.. to select a new Dali Lama.. it is also listed on Lostpedia that Richard is Ben's Panchen Lama as provided in the Season 3 DVD commentary on describing who Richard is... the name they select for this character is based in real life...

also listed, and something I failed to include in the evidence I have compiled.. Ben pointedly asks Richard.. when a small question was asked about birthdays..

"It's a birthday present. You do remember birthdays don't you?" Ben asks Richard..

also alluding to Richards less than or more than human status... or daily Fountain of Youth Cocktail....

you theory Erikua.. though Fun and Thoughtful... well... no offense.. it lacks substances.. not only on the surface but deep down...

I have presented evidence.. all based on what the show has given us..I have also presented questions with regards to other players... Walt, Aaron... Special Children.. and with no response to those... perhaps they do not relate...

but to use them as argument and then not support them to advance the argument seems a bit odd.. (not you per se but within the debaters posts trying to support your theory)

Your Lost Universe.. its a nice place.. and allows for some fantastical things..as does the General Lost Universe... but somethings are irrefutable..

Emily Locke Young and Emily Locke Old... are John's Mother... DNA..

Ben, Richard, Copper and the P.I. all confirm for you... Copper is Locke's father..

The tests Richard gave Locke are documented.. there is a reason.. it had nothing to do with personality.. accept that the Items THAT BELONGED TO HIM.....ALREADY.. would confirm his past personality.... who he had been (just by being someone else long gone it most be accepted that that person had some kind of personality).. Richard already knows who he wants him to be... thats Richards job... as well as someone Richard knew personally...perhaps many many years past... Richard does not age..... at all......

as a matter of course I will finally say it here...

Richard is not only Not Locke's Father.. whether.. on or off the island.. Richard is not even capable of Fathering a child...


But Erikua.. stick to you guns.. defending a position, right or wrong... is a worthy cause... of this i am sure we can both agree... and you do it well.... I love your imagination... I wish everyone had such a gift... how much more fun would the world be then>>>>???

[lost_grrl]

Talontbo: Nobody is saying that Emily is not Locke's mother. I remember at the time there was heated debate over whether the con included lying to John about Coop being his father. There was tons and tons of debate, lots of people say SOMETHING that lead them to think Coop was not his real dad. At the time, I fell on the side of Coop being his real father, now I am not so sure.

You say that Mrs. Locke would have freaked out if she recognized him as the baby's father. I whole-heartedly disagree. Mrs. Locke strikes me as a very decorous woman. The look on her face was quite telling. If he was nobody, why the look? It isn't as if he is hideous or anything. She would just figure he was some other baby's father, or something else. It's the look...

Erikau's Lost is not only in his mind. It more closely represents the Lost that most people see. If not there wouldn't be a billion and a half conspiracy theories. Very little is cut and dry.

As for how he would know Locke was a match, I already addressed that issue. He is a man of means who hired a PI in a time when medical information was not as secure. All it would take was one bribe to one nurse at a lab to alert him to anyone who might have previously been tested as having that blood type. But also remember that things do not always conform to reality in Lost land--look at Kate's trial, for example. Lost writers bend real reality when it suits them.

More later...

[fishhead202]

I'm pretty unsure about who Locke's father is. I could see Cooper going either way. I think either fits in his personality. a) he finds someone needing a father figure and cons him b) he hunts down his son to con him. He's a pro con-man, he throws around 'son' when it's convenient to manipulate Locke.

I'm with lostgirl in that the look on grandma's face was..........odd. Had that look not been there, and there not been a pause in her answer, I would never have thought about Richard being Locke's dad. But they were there, and now I don't know

Who's Shoozey? (sp?) Someone in Santa Rosa? missed something apparently.........

--Fish

[erikau]

Originally Posted by fishhead202

I'm pretty unsure about who Locke's father is. I could see Cooper going either way. I think either fits in his personality. a) he finds someone needing a father figure and cons him b) he hunts down his son to con him. He's a pro con-man, he throws around 'son' when it's convenient to manipulate Locke.

I'm with lostgirl in that the look on grandma's face was..........odd. Had that look not been there, and there not been a pause in her answer, I would never have thought about Richard being Locke's dad. But they were there, and now I don't know

Who's Shoozey? (sp?) Someone in Santa Rosa? missed something apparently.........

--Fish

EXACTLY. Without that look on Grandma Locke's face it never would have occurred to me, but that look MEANT something. Also, if Abaddon hadn't called John "Mr. Locke" in such a Walt-ish way, it wouldn't have struck me either, Talontbo doesn't see this is evidence, but I see it as just as telling as a DNA test in the world of Lost haha.

Oh, and fish: "Shoozey" is Swoozie Kurts, the actress that played older Emily Locke in the Man from Tallahassee. I call her Swoozie because I am not sure she really is Locke's mom, or at the very least she's hiding things.

Although, if I do give in and say sure, she is Locke's real mom, it still doesn't hurt my theory. She ADMITS to being paid by Locke to lie to Cooper, are we really to believe we know the extent of the lie? There could be more...such as he is NOT Locke's father.

Maybe instead, "crazy" Emily Locke was speaking more truthfully than we assumed when she said Locke was an "immaculate conception." Maybe it had less to with there not being any father at all, and more to do with the Holy/Magical/Special nature fo the father...someone like an un-aging Richard Alpert?

[Talontbo]

hey Erikua,

perhaps you have forgotten WHEN this was... 1957ish... the scene/episode open with Emily putting a record... Buddy Holly.. then dancing around her room..

Nasty Grandma Locke comes in.. "Where do you think your going?"
Emily responds... "Out"
Grandma Locke..."With who"
Emily... no repsonse
Grandma Locke... "Him?"
Emily.. "Yes.. and you can't stop me" "were in love"
Grandma Locke... "He's twice your age Emily"
Emily... "so what mom,are you jealous?"

where Emily proceeds to leave the house.. Not Run away..

now.. consider again the circumstance and time period... the 1950...

Evidence..

Emily has been pregnant 6 MONTHS!!!

so... in 6 months.. you expect anyone to believe a mother of a 17yr old girl has not once met this man??? in the 1950's????

a Man her daughter so snidely quips.."Are you jealous"... that Grandma Locke refers to as "HIM".. as if she has met him and does not approve in the least...

Sorry Erikua.. you are singling out a single expression.. one of a women that just had her daughter run from the hospital room after refusing to hold her newborn.. a woman that has just been reprimanded for wanting to light a cigarette.. and was put off... and of a very creepy looking man.. staring through a window at her grand child.. staring I might add... not like a father would... even a mature father...also.. Cooper is just the person character wise.. to shun this child.. shun Emily for getting pregnant and wouldn't even show up to see his newborn child...

before the cigarette exchange
and even before Richard is seen in the window..

Grandma say... "so who do I talk to about adoption?"

Nurse.. "Is that the father"

Richard in window..

Grandma Locke.."I...I don't know who that is".... (expression.. perplexed.. not one of recognition... almost as if she wanted it to be someone she knew.. or had seen.. but wasn't...)

Richard smiles.. and resumes is peering at baby John... and then simply walks away..

so again I ask... in the mid 1950... even a mother of Nasty Grandma character.. do you honestly believe.. she wouldn't know about a Man.. her daughter was seeing for 6 months.. and did not approve of.. and had never seen him???? not one time..in 6 months..

and.. do you honestly believe.. that had she seen the father.. and it had been Richard.. she would have acted as she did in that scene???

forget all the other evidence I have listed.. forget everything... just examine this sequence honestly.. taking into consideration, the Time Period.. the Length of time Emily has been pregnant.. a mother clearly not approving of her daughters male interests... a mother that refers to "HIM" as if she has met him.. and knows he is to old for her daughter...

and after you do that... you see the expression... on Grandma's face... why wouldn;t you ask..

why wasn't it a GLARE.... with disdain... and hate... ??????

one simple moment.. and yet the entire sequence also plays out in such a manner as to point in the direct... Richard is not Locke's Father....

[erikau]

T, sometimes I think you are purposefully obtuse. SHE WAS LYING. She knew who he was, that was obvious, and that is what we are all saying. She was being a priggish snob, not wanting to admit that a 30ish looking year old man fathered her 17 year old's bastard. In the 1950s that was SUPER taboo, and she was ashamed. You say her look was one of being confused, but you are the only one in this thread that has said that. I think it was OBVIOUS that she recognized him, so if he isn't Locke's father then where does she know him from? You are in the minority in believing her when she said she did not know who the man was, although she was clearly distressed to see him there.

Where did I say that Grandma Locke DID NOT know who Alpert was? I said then EXACT opposite, that she did know him and recognized him at the hospital, but didn't wish to acknowledge a man she saw as ruining her daughter's life.

[Talontbo]

hey Erikua..

you continue to use one simple moment.. and the leap that She Lied to a Nurse..

and the expression is of confusion.. even perhaps question....

Why would this man be interested in this child...

why wouldn't she follow him.. confront him... demand an answer???

being in the minority on this forum with regards to this.. does not make me wrong.. anymore so than 1000 people agreeing with you makes you all correct...

I have listed a dozen things that point directly to Richard not being Locke's father.. a mound of evidence.. provided. seen.. repeated.. on the show.. over and over... and you build your theory on a simple vague expression... and Richard in a window at least several days or weeks after John was born...

He wasn't shown in the delivery room... he wasn't shown dating Emily.. he has never once indicated any special biological attachment to John Locke in the least... not once.... and yet.. you label him John's Father..

I have..
DNA for Older Emily
P.I.'s investigative report on Emily and Cooper
Admission papers.. with Birthdate.. S.S. # Medicare #
Cooper as match for a Kidney..
Cooper explaining his history with Emily
Emily ... also explaining her history...
Cooper... taking the time tio listen to Locke.. his son.. after the Kidney thing..
Locke.. seeing his mother in a vision...
Ben and Richard bringing Cooper to the Island... to be killed....

and not once.. have either Richard or Ben even obscurely intimated Locke to be Richards real father...

so... whether or not you can accept all the evidence... we have been given.. is up to you... but it is a massive amount... and it is compelling... and persuasive...

even if you are not swayed... you can not ignore the shear amount.....

[erikau]

Dude, you argue against yourself and don't even realize it. Why doesn't she confront him and question him? Because SHE KNOWS WHO HE IS. If she was that puzzled, and didn't know who he was, then I agree she would have questioned the man staring at her new grandson like a piece of meat, at least for the sake of curiosity. She doesn't look curious, she looks disturbed, to see him there. Whether Locke's father or not, she knew Alpert somehow.

Also, I don't use one moment, but I have argued the rest of it many times already and no longer feel the need to repeat myself. Anthony Cooper was a conman, and I have no reason to take his word and the word of an ex-Santa Rosa patient who ADMITS to being paid to LIE, over evidence.

But fine, more? Did Anthony Cooper look like he was almost 20 years older than the older Emily Locke? If Em Locke was 17 around 1957, making her birth date about 1940, that would make her almost 50 in the Man from Tallahassee. Anthony Cooper DOES NOT look 70 to me, although he has white hair, 70 is pretty old. He doesn't look much older than Emily Locke, so I really question that he is old enough that her mother would have said, "He is twice your age." Richard Alpert, however, did look twice her age.

Also, conman or not, what kind of father can push his blood out a freaking window? I know it is possible, but to me, that was the ultimate show of Cooper's true self. He didn't hesitate to try and kill Locke, and estranged or not, I have a hard time seeing a man do that to his flesh and blood. Circumstantial, yes, but no more so than everything else.

Finally, you assume that Locke's kidney removal was just that, a kidney removal. Yet as I have already argued, and you have ignored, that the operation had nothing to do with a kidney. Whether Cooper somehow worked for someone attached to the Island, or was used as a pawn, the fact of the matter is that that operation was NECESSARY for Locke;s destiny. Without Anthony Cooper: Locke doesn't get an operation to remove his kidney, so later Ben's gunshot may have killed him. Also, without Anthony Cooper: Locke never gets pushed out a window, never gets paralyzed, never meets Abaddon at physical therapy, never goes on the walkabout, never gets turned away from the walkabout, never crashes on the Island. I guess to accept my theory you have to accept that there IS a master plan, a destiny, but I think that is becoming clear. All in all though, Anthony Cooper was NECESSARY to Locke's destiny, and just like the Island uses its influence later on Michael and Jack to guide their lives, it did so for John Locke. I find it more than coincidental that we have two Santa Rosa patients, Emily and Libby, who both somehow end up causing people to crash on the Island.

You choose to take things exactly as they are presented to you, despite the fact that the writers tell you flat out that Cooper is a conman and Em Locke was paid to work with him. Also, you seem to chose to ignore the idea of destiny in Lost, and that's fine, but I think you fail to connect dots because of it. Common themes are themes for a reason.