Reincarnation

Talontbo · 05-09-2008, 05:32 AM

hey Mugatu,

I start this thread for you.... Because as you stated you did not interpret the scene where Richard and young Locke are together in the living room of Locke's foster family as such..

Richard says to Locke, after placing various items on the coffee table (baseball glove, bible, small bottle compass, old comic and a knife)..

"Which of these items BELONGED to you?..." (past tense) "No No John, Which of these things BELONGED to you ALREADY?" (reaffirmed past tense)

this, after Richard was seen some 6-7 years approx. standing out side the the hospital room... Richard was aware of the birth... either before it happened of for some reason was informed it happened....

so I ask.. if not reincarnation.. how best would you describe exactly how you interpreted the meaning...??

I absolutely came away with that scene thinking ... reincarnation...

I look forward to your response...

T

HurleyIsMyHomeBoy · 05-09-2008, 06:19 AM

I thought maybe they are trying to RECREATE Locke, well, sort of like, we messed up on THIS one, lets go back to the start and try again, so they sent Alpert back to the birth to try to change lock in the future?

Talontbo · 05-09-2008, 06:29 AM

hey Hurley..

not sure I can accept that.. because of the Items... the Compass was Old... the bottle was beach sand it appears... Long Time Ago On A Beach....

and just the words.... the use of the word "Already"

could it be.. to change the future??? I guess... if one was not afraid of a paradox..

and more confusing... although surely not something tol et bother me to much..

when Locke see Richard...on the island... zero recognition... I don;t know about locke... but if a strange man cam to see me and ask me rather odd questions when I was 6-7... and I saw him... exactly the same.. some 35 -40 years later??? would I recognize him after all those years??? Knowing myself... I would have to say yes... could or would Locke??? I don't know.. after how they have made Lockes character not the brightest bulb in the lamp lately... I would have to say.. no Locke wouldn't have a clue... he couldn't even think to look in Ben's hidy room... even after catching Sayid run out of it... what makes me think Ben should recognize a strange man that hasn't aged 30-40 years later????

erikau · 05-09-2008, 06:34 AM

Talontbo, I don't watch it with captions on, so I can't be sure, but I'm almost positive Alpert said, "Which one of these items belongs to you, John?"...and when Locke is confused, he clarifies, "Which one of these items ALREADY belongs to you John?" Think of it as if he is speaking to an amnesia victim. He is trying to see what he remembers, if he knows what he should know. Think of Faraday and Charlotte on the beach with the playing cards. Was Faraday trying to psychically guess what the cards were, or was he trying to remember what they should be? I would go with the second. Alpert was seeing if Locke had figured out how to access his whole memory...not a memory confined by time.

forceps40 · 05-09-2008, 06:54 AM

I didn't interpret that scene as reincarnation either. If John is destined to go to the island, then the items already belong to him because they are part of him and part of his destiny. The "already" signifies present tense, not past tense. He never said "Which of these items belonged to you."

I think it really has to do with what John is and some serious foreshadowing about what John needs to become on his journey. we know his on this journey for a reason, and that they've tried to get him to the island before. But he rebelled. There's always been this struggle for John to define himself-think back to the commune when he was asked if he was a hunter or farmer. John has consistently chosen "violent" warrior paths, but my guess is that in order to move the island, he's going to have to use his scientist side.

Talontbo · 05-09-2008, 06:55 AM

hey Erikua.

I have now watched the scene 4 times...

the words Belonged and Already.. both convey the meaning of Past Tense... to interpret these words any other way is a stretch....

before they sit down.. the camera settles on the picture on the wall.. a picture of a small stick figure of a person.. and a swirling black tornado looking mass... Richard takes pause and then asks.. "Did you draw that John"...

the implication seems clear.... "Smokey"

from the moment they sit down..

Richard lays out items...in order... and while saying "I want you to look at these things and think about"... as he is laying them out

Glove, Bible, Sand Bottle, Old Compass, Old Comic, Old Knife

when done laying them out.. Richard continues...

"Kay, Now tell me John... which of these things belonged to you"

John replies... "To Keep"

Richard..."no no John.. which of these things belonged to you already"

though a bit similar to Faraday/Charlotte test... it is different.. and the interpretation seem clear..

taking the picture... the items.. and the use of past tense.. John Locke is a reincarnation of a long dead original inhabitant of the island...

to single out just the picking of items.. and not look at the entire sequence... does not address..

Richard at the Hospital when John can be removed from his incubator... is Richard there for a memory test of an infant???? I highly doubt it.. Richard is there to see the birth of a very special person... as has been Richard's willingness to help lock do away with daddy... and Locke's now assumption of Island Savior duties..

erikau · 05-09-2008, 07:16 AM

All I can say is this: A MAJOR theme on the show right now is time travel, and knowledge gained by time travel. That being said, an actual bodily reincarnation on Lost seems UNNECESSARY, because the writers have set it up in such a way that in their universe, theoretically all people could be able to access their entire lives. Consciousness jumping. Not bodily travel, mind travel.

John drew Smokey, I agree. But, that was because he has memories of the Island, and Island he has not been to in linear time, but in cyclical time that does not matter. As far as Alpert goes, he is the Island recruiter. He brought Juliette, he is trying from birth to get Locke their. It has to do with destiny, not reincarnation, but I guess we can agree to disagree haha.

HurleyIsMyHomeBoy · 05-09-2008, 07:20 AM

I'm with erikau on this one, I think alpert honestly wanted to get them their because he know's what john can do, and what was going to happen.

Anyone have any tylenol?

!

Talontbo · 05-09-2008, 07:24 AM

but.. couldn't reincarnation also be considered a form of Time Travel... especially if one maintains memories from one life to another.>>>>>>???? this is what science fiction is all about...

to reverse that... you are saying... baby Locke was born with the memories of a Life Not Yet Lived...

with the ability to see his future... and though that is appealing... the compass would rule that out..

because if Richard went back in time.. with the Items from the future... they would be modern....

the compass.. was not modern.. this also denotes PAST....

I am not budging on this one.... whether correct or not... the scene as delivered clearly should be viewed as implied... Past Tense.... Before...not To Come...

I say this because of the careful way Richard selected his words...

when he could easily have said... "I have these things I want you to look at John... Think about them... and tell me which ones seem familiar to you"

he did not. he used. "BELONGED TO YOU (long pause for effect) ALREADY"

how much more do you need...????

erikau · 05-09-2008, 07:35 AM

T: if you take the test at face value, only one of the items actually had anything to do with Locke. We know he wasn't supposed to pick the knife, but what WAS he supposed to pick? It was probably the sand, the sand from the Island, so the compass and book and comic would not matter.

And I don't take the test at face value. Alpert knew as soon as he saw the Smokey drawing on the wall that Locke had visions or dreams of the Island. Ben also later says he used to have dreams and visions. The test was to see which item Locke would choose, which kind of person he was. Choosing the knife made Richard angry, because as we later learn, Locke is SUPPOSED to go on the path of a goodly scientist, not a knife-wielding hunter.

To take it a step further, I think both Ben and Locke's dreams are because of their mother Emily (yes, I think their mother is one person). She runs out of her house pregnant, gets hit by a car and sees a white light. To me, white light is a symbol of a near death experience, she saw the light. We have encountered a near death experience on Lost before: Charlotte Malkin, daughter of Richard Malkin. Charlotte claimed that while she was "dead' she traveled to a magical Island, where she met Yemi (Eko's brother). His brother crashed on the Island, when Charlotte was "dead' she was on the Island. What if Emily was also "dead" with baby Locke inside of her, and they both traveled to the Island? She dies giving bitth to Ben, and the same thing could have happened, explaining both Ben and Locke's intrinsic deep connection to the Island. It is both of their real homes. Also, it was make Ben not a liar when he says he's always been on the Island. Ben and Locke made their first trip to the Island, and maybe their first time/space travel, as infants, and were haunted by visions and dreams.

To add a bit more credibility to that: Emily Linus died in Portland. Yet, she appears on the Island and there is a painting of her looking alive in front of the jungle. Emily has been to the Island, first when she was hit by a car with Locke in-utero, and the second and final time when she died birthing Ben.

05-09-2008, 05:32 AM	#1
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 430	Reincarnation hey Mugatu, I start this thread for you.... Because as you stated you did not interpret the scene where Richard and young Locke are together in the living room of Locke's foster family as such.. Richard says to Locke, after placing various items on the coffee table (baseball glove, bible, small bottle compass, old comic and a knife).. "Which of these items BELONGED to you?..." (past tense) "No No John, Which of these things BELONGED to you ALREADY?" (reaffirmed past tense) this, after Richard was seen some 6-7 years approx. standing out side the the hospital room... Richard was aware of the birth... either before it happened of for some reason was informed it happened.... so I ask.. if not reincarnation.. how best would you describe exactly how you interpreted the meaning...?? I absolutely came away with that scene thinking ... reincarnation... I look forward to your response... T

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05-09-2008, 06:19 AM	#2
HurleyIsMyHomeBoy Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 99	I thought maybe they are trying to RECREATE Locke, well, sort of like, we messed up on THIS one, lets go back to the start and try again, so they sent Alpert back to the birth to try to change lock in the future?

05-09-2008, 06:29 AM	#3
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 430	hey Hurley.. not sure I can accept that.. because of the Items... the Compass was Old... the bottle was beach sand it appears... Long Time Ago On A Beach.... and just the words.... the use of the word "Already" could it be.. to change the future??? I guess... if one was not afraid of a paradox.. and more confusing... although surely not something tol et bother me to much.. when Locke see Richard...on the island... zero recognition... I don;t know about locke... but if a strange man cam to see me and ask me rather odd questions when I was 6-7... and I saw him... exactly the same.. some 35 -40 years later??? would I recognize him after all those years??? Knowing myself... I would have to say yes... could or would Locke??? I don't know.. after how they have made Lockes character not the brightest bulb in the lamp lately... I would have to say.. no Locke wouldn't have a clue... he couldn't even think to look in Ben's hidy room... even after catching Sayid run out of it... what makes me think Ben should recognize a strange man that hasn't aged 30-40 years later????

05-09-2008, 06:34 AM	#4
erikau Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 233	Talontbo, I don't watch it with captions on, so I can't be sure, but I'm almost positive Alpert said, "Which one of these items belongs to you, John?"...and when Locke is confused, he clarifies, "Which one of these items ALREADY belongs to you John?" Think of it as if he is speaking to an amnesia victim. He is trying to see what he remembers, if he knows what he should know. Think of Faraday and Charlotte on the beach with the playing cards. Was Faraday trying to psychically guess what the cards were, or was he trying to remember what they should be? I would go with the second. Alpert was seeing if Locke had figured out how to access his whole memory...not a memory confined by time.

05-09-2008, 06:54 AM	#5
forceps40 Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 36	I didn't interpret that scene as reincarnation either. If John is destined to go to the island, then the items already belong to him because they are part of him and part of his destiny. The "already" signifies present tense, not past tense. He never said "Which of these items belonged to you." I think it really has to do with what John is and some serious foreshadowing about what John needs to become on his journey. we know his on this journey for a reason, and that they've tried to get him to the island before. But he rebelled. There's always been this struggle for John to define himself-think back to the commune when he was asked if he was a hunter or farmer. John has consistently chosen "violent" warrior paths, but my guess is that in order to move the island, he's going to have to use his scientist side.

05-09-2008, 06:55 AM	#6
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 430	hey Erikua. I have now watched the scene 4 times... the words Belonged and Already.. both convey the meaning of Past Tense... to interpret these words any other way is a stretch.... before they sit down.. the camera settles on the picture on the wall.. a picture of a small stick figure of a person.. and a swirling black tornado looking mass... Richard takes pause and then asks.. "Did you draw that John"... the implication seems clear.... "Smokey" from the moment they sit down.. Richard lays out items...in order... and while saying "I want you to look at these things and think about"... as he is laying them out Glove, Bible, Sand Bottle, Old Compass, Old Comic, Old Knife when done laying them out.. Richard continues... "Kay, Now tell me John... which of these things belonged to you" John replies... "To Keep" Richard..."no no John.. which of these things belonged to you already" though a bit similar to Faraday/Charlotte test... it is different.. and the interpretation seem clear.. taking the picture... the items.. and the use of past tense.. John Locke is a reincarnation of a long dead original inhabitant of the island... to single out just the picking of items.. and not look at the entire sequence... does not address.. Richard at the Hospital when John can be removed from his incubator... is Richard there for a memory test of an infant???? I highly doubt it.. Richard is there to see the birth of a very special person... as has been Richard's willingness to help lock do away with daddy... and Locke's now assumption of Island Savior duties..

05-09-2008, 07:16 AM	#7
erikau Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 233	All I can say is this: A MAJOR theme on the show right now is time travel, and knowledge gained by time travel. That being said, an actual bodily reincarnation on Lost seems UNNECESSARY, because the writers have set it up in such a way that in their universe, theoretically all people could be able to access their entire lives. Consciousness jumping. Not bodily travel, mind travel. John drew Smokey, I agree. But, that was because he has memories of the Island, and Island he has not been to in linear time, but in cyclical time that does not matter. As far as Alpert goes, he is the Island recruiter. He brought Juliette, he is trying from birth to get Locke their. It has to do with destiny, not reincarnation, but I guess we can agree to disagree haha.

05-09-2008, 07:20 AM	#8
HurleyIsMyHomeBoy Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 99	I'm with erikau on this one, I think alpert honestly wanted to get them their because he know's what john can do, and what was going to happen. Anyone have any tylenol? !

05-09-2008, 07:24 AM	#9
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 430	but.. couldn't reincarnation also be considered a form of Time Travel... especially if one maintains memories from one life to another.>>>>>>???? this is what science fiction is all about... to reverse that... you are saying... baby Locke was born with the memories of a Life Not Yet Lived... with the ability to see his future... and though that is appealing... the compass would rule that out.. because if Richard went back in time.. with the Items from the future... they would be modern.... the compass.. was not modern.. this also denotes PAST.... I am not budging on this one.... whether correct or not... the scene as delivered clearly should be viewed as implied... Past Tense.... Before...not To Come... I say this because of the careful way Richard selected his words... when he could easily have said... "I have these things I want you to look at John... Think about them... and tell me which ones seem familiar to you" he did not. he used. "BELONGED TO YOU (long pause for effect) ALREADY" how much more do you need...????

05-09-2008, 07:35 AM	#10
erikau Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 233	T: if you take the test at face value, only one of the items actually had anything to do with Locke. We know he wasn't supposed to pick the knife, but what WAS he supposed to pick? It was probably the sand, the sand from the Island, so the compass and book and comic would not matter. And I don't take the test at face value. Alpert knew as soon as he saw the Smokey drawing on the wall that Locke had visions or dreams of the Island. Ben also later says he used to have dreams and visions. The test was to see which item Locke would choose, which kind of person he was. Choosing the knife made Richard angry, because as we later learn, Locke is SUPPOSED to go on the path of a goodly scientist, not a knife-wielding hunter. To take it a step further, I think both Ben and Locke's dreams are because of their mother Emily (yes, I think their mother is one person). She runs out of her house pregnant, gets hit by a car and sees a white light. To me, white light is a symbol of a near death experience, she saw the light. We have encountered a near death experience on Lost before: Charlotte Malkin, daughter of Richard Malkin. Charlotte claimed that while she was "dead' she traveled to a magical Island, where she met Yemi (Eko's brother). His brother crashed on the Island, when Charlotte was "dead' she was on the Island. What if Emily was also "dead" with baby Locke inside of her, and they both traveled to the Island? She dies giving bitth to Ben, and the same thing could have happened, explaining both Ben and Locke's intrinsic deep connection to the Island. It is both of their real homes. Also, it was make Ben not a liar when he says he's always been on the Island. Ben and Locke made their first trip to the Island, and maybe their first time/space travel, as infants, and were haunted by visions and dreams. To add a bit more credibility to that: Emily Linus died in Portland. Yet, she appears on the Island and there is a painting of her looking alive in front of the jungle. Emily has been to the Island, first when she was hit by a car with Locke in-utero, and the second and final time when she died birthing Ben.