Reincarnation

[Talontbo]

hey Erikua..

that is a very complicated and exact set of conjectures... and completely dismisses the words of Richard's choosing... words that probably should not be dismissed so lightly..

every item Richard layed out with one exception could easily be seen as something a small boy in the 1950 would be familiar with...

Bible (book of laws) baseball glove, comic book, compass and a knife... only the bottle of sand should draw suspicion... or question....

but Richard was exact in how he asked the question... Belonged to you..... already...

if we assume Richard was attempting to delve into Locke's future.... why not just ask..

'Which of these things will belong to you".... clearly a statement interpreted as future tense...

and yet... I could be wrong even after 4 viewing... the Compass.... the fix direction indicator... seemed to be pointing to 305.....

so.... again... whehter its correct or not... the clear interpretation is Past Tense... regardless of future dreams... and yet Richard never asked... "hey John. do you have dreams?"

as for the picture.... why does it have to be.. of something yet to come??? Can't it just as easily be... Something that has already come to pass????

we know Locke was not afraid of Smokey.. I wonder... because he had already encounter it in a past life????

as for Ben's mom and John's mom being one in the same... not even close to that thought here at all... we have seen both... and they are different.... one dies at childbirth... Bens... Locke's mom shows up years later to be part of a scheme to get John's kidney... and was being paid I might add... so that leap is a bit to far over the ciff for me...

But I am willing to wait and see... not agree or disagree... just wait and see....

[erikau]

T, I disagree with you on what he said. He said "Which already BELONGS to you"...present tense. He emphasizes the "already" because Locke acts like he is about to able to pick out a prize, like a child would. Alpert wants to make sure he understands what he asking him, to choose that item that IS ALREADY his, not WAS ALREADY his. That is perfectly acceptable English. Like I said, Alpert is thinking of it as if he is speaking so someone with amnesia. If you had amnesia, and I was trying to jog your memory, I would ask you, "Which of these things belongs to you," not "which of these things belonged to you".

[erikau]

Originally Posted by Talontbo

but Richard was exact in how he asked the question... Belonged to you..... already...

if we assume Richard was attempting to delve into Locke's future.... why not just ask..





as for Ben's mom and John's mom being one in the same... not even close to that thought here at all... we have seen both... and they are different.... one dies at childbirth... Bens... Locke's mom shows up years later to be part of a scheme to get John's kidney... and was being paid I might add... so that leap is a bit to far over the ciff for me...

But I am willing to wait and see... not agree or disagree... just wait and see....

As for Alpert's wording, yours makes sense if you have a LINEAR concept of time: past, present, future. BUT if you have a cyclical sense of time, as is the case in most Eastern philosophy, there IS no past, present, future. There are points of time in past and present, but all of time is a ring, no beginning or end. In an Eastern sense, "Which of these already belons to you" is a very legitimate question.

As for the mothers: The only time we KNOW we see Emily Locke is in last night's episode. She abandons her son, afraid to hold him because she knows her mother is going to make her give him up. She is blonde. Swoosie Kurts, the actress who plats Mama Locke in the kidney episode, is a red head, and a liar. She is being paid to lie and admits it. So, is she only lying to Locke about his father, or was she being paid to lie and say she was his mother?

We know of another Emily. She is blonde and wavy haired, like Emily Locke. This is Ben's mother. Aside from those OBVIOUS similarities, the writer's give us another HUGE clue.

Emily Locke gives birth to John. The last thing she does is scream, "Name him John!"

Emily Linus gives birth to Ben years later. Before she dies, the last thing she says is, "Name him Ben!"

Mere coincidence? I think not!

[Talontbo]

Erikua.,..

I have posted the exact words... verbatim.. in quotes... it does not matter whether you agree or not... I type them as they were said... with no variation at all.. I will be more than happy to do it again...

the words are exact.. and past tense.. I did not include but will here now for you.. what Richard said when Locke picked up the knife...

Richard..

"you sure the knife belongs to you John?" "you sure about that?" Locke... nods yes

Richard turns his head.. clearly upset. The grabs the knife out of Lockes hand and says.

"Well it doesn't"

he did not say.... "are you sure the knife will belong to you John?" "well it won't"

so again.. whether wish to accept the words.. as exacting as Richard emphasized them is your choice... to me.. he selection and emphasis was exact and clear.. he was talking to a child and wanted to make sure John understood exactly what he was asking... he was clear and direct... making interpretation so simple even a 6-7 year old understood....

"Which of these things belonged to you.... already"


you can review the scene... at ABC.com.... I have now.. going on 6 times.... so... trust me when I say... the posts I made with regard to this scene are dead on....

[Talontbo]

hey Erikua..

you really need to review all this again... the actress playing Locke's mom may very well be blond...

but last night she was a redhead... not a flaming disco red to be sure... but nowhere near classic nature california blond... not even close... and surely not anywhere near the blond Bens mom was..

as for Eastern Philosophy... and their ideas of time and the universe.. I can not dispute that... nor would I even try..

I can only say... go back... watch it again... pay close attention to what and how Richard says what he says... what I have posted is exact... and the meaning is clear... Linear or not... the implication was..

BELONGED TO YOU.........ALREADY......

[erikau]

T, exactly, "are you sure the knife BELONGS to you." Not to be rude, but you do know that Belongs is present tense, right? Specifically, it would be the present imperfect tense, an action without a beginning or end.

Also, once again as I said, CYCLICAL time. It doesn't matter if he said belongs, belonged, will belong, if we are not operating on a linear time scheme, and we KNOW that we aren't. If you can't think of time in a less rigid matter this will never make sense to you though.

And finally, yes, Richard gets ANGRY and says the knife is not his. A child choosing simply a wrong answer, why would you get mad? But if as I said, this test was more about preference than memory (as ALL of those items to me looked to be things Locke COULD have seen or owned during his life). Richard was not mad because Locke remembered the knife. Locke at how carefully Locke picks up the compass, the sand, the knife. All three of those I immediately picked out as being Locke-ish...things Island Locke would see as important. Locke touches all of them, considers the, but ultimately names the KNIFE as the one that is his. I interpreted this, and of course could be wrong, as ALL of those 3 items called to Locke but he chose the knife. This is what angered Richard, that out of the three, he chose the knife over the sand and compass as HIS. Alpert was mad because Locke didn't have the character he though he would, in my opinion.

[Talontbo]

hey Erikua.

stop for a minute... think about what we know of Locke..

from the moment he lands on the Island.. though the whole first season.. it has been established.. Locke as a special communion with The Island.. its familiar... he senses its specialness... he predicts its weather and feels its healing powers.. this is true and not in question.... How????

perhaps.. he has been here before... sometime in the past maybe???? or is he again sensing a future visit???? and this again is another past for him??? how cyclical do you wish to make this...

Richard was there for Locke's birth.. and it would not surprise me to know he was the driver of the car that hit Locke's mom... I have already posted that.. remember Juliettes husband and the bus??? Richard was there as well...

But... just for a second... saying.." are you sure it belongs to you John? are you sure" "well it doesn't"...

is exactly like going to a lost and found.... or a police viewing of recovered stolen items.. and proving "You Are The Owner"

The Owner of something YOU ONCE OWNED.,... the knife "DID NOT BELONG TO HIM BECAUSE HE NEVER OWNED IT"

so again.. this denotes a PAST OWNERSHIP.. let alone a Future One...

so again I say... Reincarnation.... coming back, being reborn into a new form.

but..is being Reborn in the same form (LOCKE) still reincarnation??? no matter how you slice it... Yes....

[erikau]

Originally Posted by Talontbo

hey Erikua.

stop for a minute... think about what we know of Locke..

from the moment he lands on the Island.. though the whole first season.. it has been established.. Locke as a special communion with The Island.. its familiar... he senses its specialness... he predicts its weather and feels its healing powers.. this is true and not in question.... How????

perhaps.. he has been here before... sometime in the past maybe???? or is he again sensing a future visit???? and this again is another past for him??? how cyclical do you wish to make this...

I agree with the special connection, and several times I have told you "how". I have NOT denied that Locke has been to the Island. First, I said I believe he visited there as an infant during his mother's near death experience. Now if you choose not to buy that, although I think it is sound, I still said he has been to the Island. We are seeing him on the Island. Think of Desmond and consciousness travel on the Island. Now what is SPECIAL people, and we know there are because we keep hearing about them, somehow can access their subconscious memories? That is how Locke has "been to the Island already" as a child...he physcially does not have to be, because his mond contains ALLLL of his life's memories...even the one's that haven't happened "yet" in linear time. In cyclical tiume his whole life has been lived. Do you get what I'm saying?

Originally Posted by Talontbo

Richard was there for Locke's birth.. and it would not surprise me to know he was the driver of the car that hit Locke's mom... I have already posted that.. remember Juliettes husband and the bus??? Richard was there as well...

I buy that. Doesn't have an impact on my theory though.

Originally Posted by Talontbo

But... just for a second... saying.." are you sure it belongs to you John? are you sure" "well it doesn't"...

is exactly like going to a lost and found.... or a police viewing of recovered stolen items.. and proving "You Are The Owner"

The Owner of something YOU ONCE OWNED.,... the knife "DID NOT BELONG TO HIM BECAUSE HE NEVER OWNED IT"

so again.. this denotes a PAST OWNERSHIP.. let alone a Future One...

Once again, agree to disgaree with you on that. I see what you are syaing, but that is NOT the only way that could or should be taken, and all the other evidence points to my theory being more likely.

Originally Posted by Talontbo

so again I say... Reincarnation.... coming back, being reborn into a new form.

but..is being Reborn in the same form (LOCKE) still reincarnation??? no matter how you slice it... Yes....

Um, no, it isn't and that has been my ENTIRE problem with your theory. Look at my first reply to you: I did not deny that Locke had been on the Island before, I denied that Locke has been on the Island as SOMEONE ELSE. Reincarnation DOES involve a new body, and that is what I do not agree with. So far we have seen consciousness, soul, whatever you want to call it, travel trhough time BUT ONLY INTO THEIR OWN BODIES. Desmond could move through time, but only as Desmond. I think Locke has been on the Island in a different time, and some part of him knows it. But he was there as John Locke, not as a survivor of the Blakc Orck who was reborn in 1950 to a weird orphan kid.

[Talontbo]

okay Erikua...

I do indeed see where you are coming from.. I think..

regardless of age.. and lets throw Richard out the window for now...

you premise is such..

Locke.. having been on the island.. and any time.. past , present or future... can and does.. draw on those memories.. as his.. and as such.. could in his mind.. declare... MINE???

example... I am Locke.. I am 7.. I have a memory of when I am 40... its of a Red VW Beetle... but I am 7 years old... I could still say it is mine... because I know it will be mine????

so.. back to Richard... the Items... Old baseball Glove.. Old Book .. Bottle with Sand... Old Compass.. Old Knife... Old Comic...

I am Locke.. I have a Memory from Long ago... It is Mine... I wasn't there physically... But I was There.... so... The Sand is Mine..and The Compass is Mine.. not physically... only Mentally??? as I experienced this past time....

am I getting close to how you are think this through????

[erikau]

Originally Posted by Talontbo

okay Erikua...

I do indeed see where you are coming from.. I think..

regardless of age.. and lets throw Richard out the window for now...

you premise is such..

Locke.. having been on the island.. and any time.. past , present or future... can and does.. draw on those memories.. as his.. and as such.. could in his mind.. declare... MINE???

example... I am Locke.. I am 7.. I have a memory of when I am 40... its of a Red VW Beetle... but I am 7 years old... I could still say it is mine... because I know it will be mine????

so.. back to Richard... the Items... Old baseball Glove.. Old Book .. Bottle with Sand... Old Compass.. Old Knife... Old Comic...

I am Locke.. I have a Memory from Long ago... It is Mine... I wasn't there physically... But I was There.... so... The Sand is Mine..and The Compass is Mine.. not physically... only Mentally??? as I experienced this past time....

am I getting close to how you are think this through????

EXACTLY. I wouldn't call them very strong memories, but they obviously manifest enough so that he can do things like draw Smokey attacking someone. Locke was drawn not JUST to the knife, but also to the sand and the compass, he just settled on the knife in my opinion. I think it WAS a reincarnation test of sorts, like Daniel and the playing cards, except I don't like to use reincarnation because that DOES involve a bodily change. Young John wouldn't even be able to explain HOW or WHY he thinks it is his, it is subconscious. THIS is why Richard rounds up these special kids: to train them on how to focus their gifts, like Professor X haha. I think it was CRUCIAL that Locke was playing a board game when Richard got there...it set up the game play good vs. evil theme that the scene as really dealing with. When Locke chooses the knife, it angers Richard because he fears that Locke will be a bad guy...one of Abaddon's judging by the later visit. To me, that test was to decide if John was good special or bad special, and Richard was just unhappy that John wasn't a good guy, at least not yet.

I will throw this in because it does fit: to me THIS is part of the "Jack can't raise Aaron" deal. Locke was not raised by his mother. Thus, his path in life is screwed. If Locke was raised by Emily, would he have chosen the knife, or would he have gone for the compass or maybe the glove. If Locke had been raised by Emily, would he have been so desparate to fit in in high school that he would deny his gift of science in order to be normal? Locke was no raised by his sweet mother, who reminds me of Claire, and the path to his destiny was filled with obstacles.

To me, this will end up being why it matters who raises Aaron. An Aaron raised by Claire will fulfill his destiny, while perhaps an Aaron raised by Jack and Kate will take his natural gifts and do ahrm with them. THis could also explain what happened to Walt's parents. Maybe Walt was always supposed to be raised by Michael, and when Susan took him away, the Island made her sick so she had to give him back. That was definitely going on a tangent, but I think it fits in ehre somewhat haha.