Lost: Episode 4.11 "Cabin Fever" General Thoughts

[Talontbo]

hey Jragg..

I understand how you are capable of spotting things most people can not... but again I say.. based on the average person watching.. and taking how I have aligned the Freighter to Island time line... I have yet to spot the quirk you point out... except when you consider the obvious.. Morse Code Message... other than that.. the sequence is remarkably close... now... what you are seeing... and the morse code Doctor message could be pointing to what you are describing..

and yes...and no.... My theory does not exactly account for 2 time lines... but a single time line.... mirrored... in a way.. observed from 2 points of perspective at mirrored reflections of the same time line.. but this does not actually hold true either..

as you noticed... even with a simple 31 minute discrepancy in time... which we have... this would make 2 time distinct and separate time line... but time lines of 2 of the same events in reflection of each other...

right now.. I am only considering this theory.. because of several things I have seen and they fit the idea.. though the evidence is thin.. the few things I have or solid as a rock... assuming its the right rock... which it almost assuredly is not...

but as we know... coming up with even a 31 minute difference... and then an obvious difference in Live Doctor/Dead Doctor... something is effecting this besides a Great Barrier.... if the island is a window... through which any form of radio communicaton can pass undistorted... but received by its opposite counterpart...... this also fits..

X sends message to X...but message is actually received by its Y counter part... how is in a different time stream... or as Erikua likes... and is not impossible at all.. a time different time Moment...

as for Sayid... we haven't seen him hit the beach yet.. and I do not find this at all unusual... he is in a Zodiac.. with limited top speed. traveling 80 nautical miles across open ocean... now i am no genius... and correct me if I am wrong.. but I begin to question the range of a Zodiac with a single outboard motor... that and it looks as though Sayid left in Late Afternoon... as has been pointed out.. and if he just so happens to hit the camp.. you will have to chalk that up to the writers... because as he maintains his 305.. if he does this all the way in... I doubt it intersects with the camp... he will need time to navigate up or down the coast....

Its probably now.. the very first few days of January 2005.. or the very last few days of Dec..2004... winter (northern hemi)... OK.. they are in a tropical zone.. but are still effected to some degree with a fix amount of daylight.... it has already been generally accepted that the island is north of Fiji and this puts them closer to the equator... so as compared to everyone else.. there it is closely the same all year around...

I think if you take the total sequence of events... and use my not so favored Linear observation starting from Smoke Monster Does Keamy's Team... you cannot argue the correlation.. its there.... and even if you exclude trying to match the two..

just the Keamy event...

Night... Smokey
morning/nextday... Lapidus,jungle,Sawyer and gang.. Keamy and men..
Night ....Freighter lands.. hurt Keamy guy.. Keamy real pissed...
Morning/day... Dead guy... Keamy orders everyone to prepare...
Night.. off they go.... to blow the Island...

its consistent with a single linear flow of events... with the one problem... Morse Message..

and I think from everyones point of view... we would all like to know why we have a time subplot.. and how it will ultimately impact all of ours thoughts....

[jbragg]

Hi Talontbo,

Gee, I've been demoted a letter to jragg...

What you are describing "a single timeline..mirrored" would be another way of saying two separate timelines, speaking in a quantum fashion.

And this..........let's look at it this way with your time line in place.

Night... Smokey
morning/nextday... Lapidus,jungle,Sawyer and gang.. Keamy and men..

It takes then all day, lugging Mayhew to get back to the chopper. Mayhew is a sturdy fellow and lives through this.

Night ....Freighter lands.. hurt Keamy guy.. Keamy real pissed...

And immediately beats the crap out of Michael. So then Keamy who is famously even-handed, calms down and sleeps the rest of the night. In the meantime good ole Doc works on Mayhew the rest of the night on deck. Then Keamy, all refreshed and ready to ramp up and abuse more decent folks like Gault, gets up in the...

Morning/day... Dead guy...

Who is carried off in broad daylight with his face uncovered, something generally not accepted and done with dead people on TV shows and......

Keamy orders everyone to prepare...

But these guys are such a bunch of dull witted sluggards that a few automatic weapons and a nuke take them all day to gather up and load in the chopper so that they can take off again in the middle of the....

Night.. off they go.... to blow the Island...

Nope, I can't accept that. As usual, the producers are hiding the obvious right in front of our noses, for us to catch or miss. What we saw on "Cabin Fever" just does not add up in soooo many ways.

Oh and no matter what's been said before, a copter like that would take more than 20-30 minutes to go about 80 miles. And I'm pretty sure Sayid would take hours and run out of fuel in the raft if he went 80 miles. Not to mention that if he left when you say, he would probably arrive at night or at least at sunset not during broad daylight as we've seen in the promos.

[erikau]

Originally Posted by jbragg

What you are describing "a single timeline..mirrored" would be another way of saying two separate timelines, speaking in a quantum fashion.

Yes. Talontbo, this is what I was saying to you in the Doppleganger thread. We are really talking about the same thing, except I'm trying to use the actual way it would be described in quantum physics, although probably not very well haha.

[Talontbo]

heyJbragg

online texting.. sorry to have skipped a letter... seems I have been promoted to just T..

LOL..

ok... to use your Keamy needs his rest..

No... night is 12hrs long....

why do you assume the chopper land at 11pm??? or whatever time... for all we know Ben..Lockes...Hurley.. stopped to camp at 4am....a full 28hrs later... but it was night as only defined by Darkness...

some leeway must be given... we are not privy to seeing a clock in the corner of the screen that is calibrated to Island Time or Freighter Time...

we are using generalities to describe what we are seeing.. and using ,, as best we can.. reason... to fix an approx time based on the visuals....

I listed both Freighter and Island... both match very very closely... we may get an even closer sense next episode... as we hopefully see.. Sayid return on the Zodiac.. and Sawyer.. with Miles and Aaron to the beach.. or possibly in the jungle meeting up with Jack.. following the chopper.... any one of those will clinch both time lines.. but does not address the Doctor Paradox....

[Talontbo]

hey Erikua..

I like the Dopple thread... all the thought presented are streamed and readable.. less hoping around,,

I do understand where your thoughts are derived ... and for the most part.. I think I can agree... without to much difficulty.. but as I said there.. I am also keeping the Dopple Idea as a secondary theory... because.. multiple TIMES.... for want of a better way to say it... does allow for Multiple Participants... 10 jacks.. 10 Kates... etc etc etc... If X Jack... gets switched with Y Jack.. and ends up in Z Jacks reality... Z Jack may be a bit... flaky... and may want to get back to his X reality.. as would Y Jack and Z Jack... because they are noo longer in their perspective realities...

[lost_grrl]

jbragg...please look again, and don't assume that anything you don't see takes place. Mayhew is NOT carted off the deck when he is pulled off the chopper. We don't see that. We see the doc come out to him. Later, right after the pilot says that Mayhew died, they lift a body, covered, off the DECK on a gurney...you do not see him being taken off a chopper then. You are inserting things that you are not seeing.

There is no problem, with the exception of the message about the doctor.

Check it all out again, without any assumptions about how long it takes Keamy to do this and that...fill in the blanks with regular things that a crew might do after coming back from a mission...eat, maybe rest a little...plus all of the arguing and beating, etc. It is more than conceivable that it takes the daylight time to accomplish all of those things. We see snippits...they are one place, then BOOM, they are in the next place...do we wonder how they got from the galley to the deck, to the captains quarters just because we did not see it? No...we know that they walked there, taking up more time than the instant it takes for the camera to jump to another scene.

I don't think that the Lost crew shoots its show with the express intention of having it only be understood by those with editing experience.

[jbragg]

I think you're missing one crucial point that I'm trying to make: Not to pull rank or anything, but I'm trying to say that this is the way stories are told. I have recognized a clear cinematic editing technique that is intended to tell a specific part of the story in a specific way. Based on my background as a director and editor, this is the story they are telling; (at least) two separate timelines and their ramifications. Just trying to give the community a headsup.

Watch and see if my predictions about Sayids' boat aren't true. Time there is wack on both sides (island/ship).

Enjoy the show!

Oh and for o_g_showtime Not only is the underlying temporal sequence difference logical based on what we watched, the practical storytelling conventions in television production support it.

[Talontbo]

hey JBragg,

of course there are two time lines...actually more if you take into consideration... Flash backs.. Flash Forwards and Flash Betweens.. coupled with the various Island Time Lines... The Tailes... and the the 6 hours ago seen in "Through the looking Glass" but we were not discussing those..

we were trying to focus on your observations... based on your experience on Video Editing..

in your opening post with your observation.. as Lost_Grl points out.. you added an event that does not happen... see your quote.. as well as an approx. time not in evidence.. but I accept it as probably close... to 24 hrs after Monster Attack,,

First Timeline
3:52
Dead of night, pitch black.....Keamy and men arrive on the Kahana and remove one man (Mayhew) and a cart him to sick bay with his guts hanging out. Keamy says, within earshot of Sayid, "A black piller of smoke, threw him fifty feet in the air...ripped his guts out."

He is not carted to the sickbay...

next posted Timline as yours..

Second Timeline
18:20
Aboard ship, broad daylight outside......Lapides announces that the man is dead.

how do you consider this 18:20 hrs??? thats 6:20pm??? and does not fit....

from here you continue to add Times.... that are not exactly correct or in evidence...

and again I submit... your original post failed to account for the Moment Smokey attacks... this would be or could be considered the Start time... though in actuality one could say it started when Keamy and men left the freighter the very first time before the Alex ambush... and I have gane back to this point and still find no real discrepancies...

your use of TIMELINE HEADINGS... is a bit odd... 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd... or soemthing like that.. and yet... when we see the scenes and allow for their beginnings... it does not tend to support a parallel or alternate time line as your are trying to point out...

and we as viewers are missing some moments.. let me point one out that Lost_grl was attempting..

Chopper lands..
Keamy mad...
Doctor rushes out.. asks what happened.
Keamy confronts Sayid..
Captain shows up...
off to see Michael...
Michael fesses up..
Scene ends..

Now we have Locke waking to meet Goodspeed... etc etc..

Next Freight scene...

Keamy captain.. Daylight,,, 'I need your Key",,,, Keamy still playing with broken gun??"

here is your first flaw..... How do you assume it was only a matter of moments before Keamy asks the question and Takes The Key???? when it really could have been much longer????

this is what Lost_grl was trying to point out... and my listing of Freighter / Island correlations work....

while we were waiting for Keamy to pop back on the screen.. we were watching.. Locke head to the Mass Grave....also during daylight...

so.. though you seem to be seeing something that may actually be a technique to present multiple time lines... it is in fact doing just that... though perhaps not perfectly designed to covertly present an actual shift in time.. it could be nothing more than an innocent editing of events to be presented in the most logical sequences for the viewers to grasp....

I honestly took the time to go back to when the Chopper first left before the Ambush... and followed these events to the last time we see the freighter.. and again.. except for the Doctor Paradox... I have found nothing to suggest or to support what you have detected... other than to speculate... it was and is something you caught as a seasoned Video Editor... and that the average person would not nor will not see it...

sorry... best i could do... I tried...

[jbragg]

Yes, my having Mayhew "carted" off at night is a logical extrapolation of events as viewed (vis a vis: not leaving Mayhew on deck to operate on him before he croaks, taking him to sickbay where Doc would have had his tools) and not actually in the show. that's part of my point of the clever editing. They only show you Mayhew being stretchered off in the daylight. But again, that would have left him on deck for at least an hour, from pitch black to broad day while Doc should be working on him in sickbay. Again, things don't quite add up.

Um, the times given are running times (in minutes) for the show, not literal times of day in the LOST universe. I gave the times so you could easily access parts of the show to view the scenes in question. I apopogize if I didn't make that clear.

Now to the point:

Chopper lands..
Keamy mad...
Doctor rushes out.. asks what happened.
Keamy confronts Sayid..
Captain shows up...
off to see Michael...
Michael fesses up..
Scene ends..

Stuff happens on the island

Keamy captain.. Daylight,,, 'I need your Key",,,, Keamy still playing with broken gun??"

And you're telling me that a crazy, gun-happy, cretinous type-A goon like Keamy is just playing with this gun for hours before beating up the Captain, grabbing his key because he's remembered that there's this second protocol and shoving the gun in Gault face and grunting fix this. Just the logic belies a single set of events.

And like I said, I'm just giving folks a headsup. Enjoy!

[Talontbo]

no...JBragg..

what I am saying.. and Lost_grl... seems to also agree with...

You are not accounting for HOW LONG HE WAS ACTUALLY WITH MICHAEL... and what stops he may have made after leaving Michael.. what might have occurred on any level that would have added to the time...

Leaving Michael.. to.... Palaying with gun.. taking key...


you see.. the show did not provide us with this.... there is a gap... isn't minute?? is it an hour.. or several hours..

I agree.. Keamy is a man pissed off and possessed... no question.. I don't pretend to say otherwise..

Anf know this... everyone knows.. I will take the opposite side of an argument IF I HAVE THE SUPPORTING EVIDENCE AS PROVIDED BY THE SHOW...

your only supporting evidence is.. Keamy Character Traits... and thats not enough... if you coupled this with additional scenes.. and not reasonable speculations... I would dig deeper and try to find the supporting provided evidence you need.. I haven't been able to..

a few days ago.. I had a running discussion concerning Locke's father... I provided at least a dozen known fact provided by the show to support my position.. as well as basic character traits.. when all coupled together... I still had dissenters... this happens.... even when faced with overwhelming facts and circumstantial evidence...

you lack.... Facts... and Circumstantial evidence... I am sorry... I have now spent several hours.. re-watching.. taking notes... and placing pieces in order.. and they follow a clear linear progression... I can't help that... I did not edit this episode...

but for you to try and support your theory using a Character Trait only.. tends to keep the theory weak...

go look at thread.. Fathers & Native.. honestly evaluate the evidence I provide... its enormous.... and all supported but what we have seen and can interpret... and still there are disagreements... Thats cool... I accept that... not sure I would what those dissenters on a Jury... especially if my life hung in the balance... but hey... we are all entitled to our opinions...

Find us something.. anything.. show us where..from when Capt and Keamy leave the office after looking at the Dharma Papers.. To where the Capt, appears on deck to talk to sayid... and the Morse Code Message arrives... and Lapidus... is getting Michael.. to fix the engines.. and not gassing up the chopper..and keamy is now preparing his magic protection arm band... or.. as we all think... is setting a remote detonator...

show us some odd time variation.... because.. I just can't see it....

Keamy tells Lapidus... we are going back.... he doesn't say... Right This Second....