Lost: Episode 4.11 "Cabin Fever" General Thoughts - Page 9

Mathemagician · 05-16-2008, 12:50 PM

Jbragg,
There is a problem with your explanation of the C-4.

Black ops style is on a need to know basis only.

If you'll remember in TNPLH, Daniel knew that the second protocol was in play and that they were headed for the Orchid station. I'm having difficulty in finding a reason why Daniel would even know about the second protocol. If Daniel knew about the second protocol involving the Orchid station, I think he would have known about the C-4. As would Charlotte, Miles and Frank.

jbragg · 05-16-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathemagician

Jbragg,
There is a problem with your explanation of the C-4.

Black ops style is on a need to know basis only.

If you'll remember in TNPLH, Daniel knew that the second protocol was in play and that they were headed for the Orchid station. I'm having difficulty in finding a reason why Daniel would even know about the second protocol. If Daniel knew about the second protocol involving the Orchid station, I think he would have known about the C-4. As would Charlotte, Miles and Frank.

Nope. Daniel doesn't know anything about the C-4 or Keamy's little plan. Need to know is need to know. Daniel knew only about the existence of the second protocol because Daniel is a physicist and needed to know about the Orchid and it's capabilities. If I knew the ship had that much C-4 on it, I would have never gotten on it in the first place and sure wouldn't want to go anywhere near it now, much less want to ferry people to it to "escape". No matter what the Orchid might do.

Talontbo · 05-16-2008, 01:31 PM

hey JBragg..

glad you did not leave us..

C-4... where is your evidence that the C-4 was in place beforehand??? you don't have any.... simple.. because it wasn't... fact.. the ships current Captain was surprised abot the interference.. why.. because it wasn't supposed to be there.. not only did Keamy and Gang rig the ship... But also set up their own jamming device... to make sure the ship will not move.... insurance.... why??? Because Keamy just toasted the real Captain... wouldn't you expect perhaps at least a bit of uneasiness from a crew that is already flaking out... No Jbragg.. you still fail that test...

as for Sayid... I already said.. that.. If Sayid land right at Beach Camp.. and the time doesn;t seem correct.. I would have a problem with that... I also said.. that.. the time line would be verified IF.... Sayer, Mile and Aaron showed up at the beach the next day.. this came true....

so... it is possible we are have some Fragmentations... from place to place.. or... as is more likely..

traveling 80 nautical miles/93miles at even 30 knots.. takes approx... 3 hours... I have already mentioned fuel... i did this a few days ago... when you look into the Zodiac.. there appears to be a 10 gallon tank.. I could be wrong.. it looks bigger than 5 though... now I have never piloted a Zodiac.. nor do I know what the fuel consumption is for that specific outboard...but this just confirms what i have proposed below... please continue reading...

This is simply a continuity error on the shows part... perhaps you may wish to view...

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Errors

just so as to get the basic idea of the amount and frequency of these type mistakes...

this is not unusual... it can also be less of an error issue.. and more of perhaps a saftey issue... as piloting a Zodiac in open ocean at night may present concerns the production people didn't care to deal with....

I agree.. and said ahead of time.. Sayid's trip could be a problem for me.. but i am willing to accept that... not your mysterious dual time lines... with no evidence accept Editing Anomalies...

sorry.... again.. glad you have hung around....

lost_grrl · 05-16-2008, 08:20 PM

Again, jbragg...I am not saying that there are not some serious time issues on Lost. I am simply saying that here, you are wrong. You don't "know" this beyond a doubt anymore than I "know" what I am saying to be true. You can believe something as strongly as you like, but it doesn't mean you are necessarily right. You need to realize that it is a possibility that you are wrong here.

As for all of the continuity concerns, as talont pointed out and linked to, there have been many, many continuity errors on Lost, just as there are with any show or movie. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FICTION WRITTEN AND PRODUCED FOR ENTERTAINMENT VALUE...NOT REAL LIFE, accordingly, there are going to be things that are smoothed over, or even done just plain wrong due to ease or error. Look, for example, at Kate's "trial". Any person who has taken a Law 101 class could point out a zillion errors with that, but it doesn't mean that it is supposed to mean anything other than the producers needed to somehow maneuver past that to get on with the show.

Other errors are caused simply because they aren't experts on every subject or they plain old fashion screw up in making, or editing the show. It happens.

I am not sure about Sayid and the Zodiac, or Faraday and the Zodiac for that matter. It could have been done just for ease of storytelling, it could be a mistake or it could mean something. That fact has nothing to do with your assertion that there is no way that Keamy was on deck from dawn to dusk on a winter day simply because he appeared "too mad" to wait to leave again.

I don't mind you arguing your point, whatsoever, but you really have no standing to say that you "know" for certain any more than any of us unless you have inside information, and if that is the case, you need to post in spoilers.

jvince · 05-17-2008, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbragg

Nope. Daniel doesn't know anything about the C-4 or Keamy's little plan. Need to know is need to know. Daniel knew only about the existence of the second protocol because Daniel is a physicist and needed to know about the Orchid and it's capabilities. If I knew the ship had that much C-4 on it, I would have never gotten on it in the first place and sure wouldn't want to go anywhere near it now, much less want to ferry people to it to "escape". No matter what the Orchid might do.

Or because Faraday is also like Desmond. I believe he's written everything that he's experienced during his mind-travels into his journal, that's why it has info about the Orchid and the note about Desmond being his constant. It also explains why he cried when he saw the news about Flight 815 (Perhaps he dies on the island?). To me, episode 11 implied that only Keamy and the captain were knowledgeable of the secondary protocol, so I think Faraday couldn't have known about it.

Talontbo · 05-17-2008, 05:18 AM

Jvince..

Daniels Travels??? I don't know... when Faraday hears what is said over the Sat Phone.. he is clearly upset... so upset he says something to Charlotte... of course.. Faraday loves her right?? not really.. he says it in a way that you almost have to think Charlotte should know as well... go back and re-watch it..

so... there are several possibilities.. and the one that fits most..

Every member of this extraction team.. all of them... where briefed...and informed..

The Captain was... but not his crew... he would have to have been...

The show has made it quite clear.. even from before the second chopper dropped onto the Island...

They are there to get Ben.. THEN KILL EVERY OTHER PERSON ON THIS ISLAND...

Charlotte is clearly worried.. did you see her look when Daniel left on the raft... it was one of... Hey Wait... I want to go first....!!!

and they are not worried about ORCHID... they are worried about the method Keamy is going to employ to Torch the Island.. Orchid, Ben's last place to hide... once they have Ben... order are... Kill everyone... Naomi is not there to maintain her teams safety.. that leaves. the 4 goofballs... all on their own really.. doesn't it..????

Captains dead... Regina.. she went snorklin...Minkowsky. switched off...Captain..ouchy.. dead to... Doctor...layin on the beach.. not tanning.. getting bluer...

all of the teams support... gone.. does anyone think Keamy gives a damn about Naomi's team??? at this point??? I sure don't..

I think the C-4 was rigged by Keamy or on his orders.. I think there was also placed as part of the arming an RF scrambler... Keamy was feeling the preassure, knew the ships personnel were getting flaky.. there was a sabotage..people dying for no apparent reason.. He needed insurance that the ship wasn't leaving... and guess what... it ain't a leavin...

lost_grrl · 05-17-2008, 11:41 AM

I agree with jvince here, the "secondary protocol" and Orchid stuff were in Faraday's journal, where we know he keeps stuff about his scientific studies and personal time travel.

Naomi was the only member of the extraction team, which included the scientists, that knew all. Everyone else was strictly told what they needed to know in order to do their particular job. Charlotte very clearly doesn't know about the Orchid or "Secondary Protocol". When Faraday mentions them she says, "What are you talking about" and then he tells her that it means they have to get off of the island. Now, perhaps AFTER that and before they load the Zodiac he fully informs her, but up until that point, she has not idea about either of them. I think that her response, combined with the knowledge that they are not fully informed and the fact that the information about The Orchid and S.P. are in Faraday's journal are meant to tell us that his knowledge is from his "travels".

Talontbo · 05-17-2008, 12:41 PM

so it is the agreed considerations of the current events that fuel this ???

no consideration that Ben knows.. everyone will be killed once he is captured.. or that when confronted before.. by Jack.. "are you here to rescue us" Daniel replies "well, not exactly"

that Miles has on more than one occasion... intimated Ben is the one they are after and everyone else is expendable..

Faraday may very well be having some kind is Deja Vu... as I have said before.. I think Faraday was one of the Dharma Scientist that was responsible for the First Event... the one that prompted the installation of the Swan Station Fail Safe System....

This does not make him privy to what is happening now.. He heard the name Orchid.. and knows about the Secondary Protocol... How??? Just knowing about the Orchid does not automatically give him knowledge about the SP...

of course... Faraday need not be worried about the SP exactly..or that Keamy is going to kill everyone on the island... I guess.... Faraday could just be worried about the activation of the Orchid System..

so... lets assume Faraday hasn't a clue as to the particulars of the SP.... the Torching of The Island... thats not why he is afraid...

He is afraid of the Effects of the Orchid System..

as Ben said... it is used as a Last Resort... Hurley asks why.... Ben replies with something to the effects... "Its Unpredictable and Dangerous"....

Talontbo · 05-18-2008, 03:01 PM

as a follow up... is it my imagination.. but Juliette.. who we know has some level of inside tract.. not total... but some...

Didn't she respond.. "I have never heard of it" when jack asked her what Faraday meant by Orchid???

this leads me to believe.. Ben and Richard are perhaps the current Others alive with the knowledge of this obscure Dharma Station...

Ben also says.. Widmore knows about it... hence.. Keamy knows about it..

if.. Daniel has been to the Island before.. as an original Dharma Scientist or son of an original scientist (we don't know is Dharma people were not allowed to leave the island)... this would also explain his Journal... and the scene we saw in Desmond's Flash Back.. where Daniel as trying to figure out Conscious Time Travel... but as a Dharma member... wouldn't he possibly have that memory???

mugatu22 · 05-19-2008, 01:45 AM

So, I just rewatched this episode and something occurred to me.

In the Paik Industries scene, Mr. Paik's assistants are in his office while Sun's father is complaining. They say, "We don't know how it happened, but they used 5 banks." This wasn't an accident.

This is in reference to Sun's controlling purchase of stock. It didn't occur to me until I just re-watched this scene that 5 banks is a little much, isn't it?

We have noted on this board already that 1) the Oceanic settlement would likely not be nearly enough $$$ to buy a large company, and 2) what are Sun's motives?

IMO, the fact that Sun "used 5 banks" indicates that it wasn't just her money. I'm guessing Ben Linus is in on this purchase. What do you think?

05-16-2008, 08:20 PM	#84
lost_grrl Lost Administrator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Earth...I think Posts: 739	Again, jbragg...I am not saying that there are not some serious time issues on Lost. I am simply saying that here, you are wrong. You don't "know" this beyond a doubt anymore than I "know" what I am saying to be true. You can believe something as strongly as you like, but it doesn't mean you are necessarily right. You need to realize that it is a possibility that you are wrong here. As for all of the continuity concerns, as talont pointed out and linked to, there have been many, many continuity errors on Lost, just as there are with any show or movie. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FICTION WRITTEN AND PRODUCED FOR ENTERTAINMENT VALUE...NOT REAL LIFE, accordingly, there are going to be things that are smoothed over, or even done just plain wrong due to ease or error. Look, for example, at Kate's "trial". Any person who has taken a Law 101 class could point out a zillion errors with that, but it doesn't mean that it is supposed to mean anything other than the producers needed to somehow maneuver past that to get on with the show. Other errors are caused simply because they aren't experts on every subject or they plain old fashion screw up in making, or editing the show. It happens. I am not sure about Sayid and the Zodiac, or Faraday and the Zodiac for that matter. It could have been done just for ease of storytelling, it could be a mistake or it could mean something. That fact has nothing to do with your assertion that there is no way that Keamy was on deck from dawn to dusk on a winter day simply because he appeared "too mad" to wait to leave again. I don't mind you arguing your point, whatsoever, but you really have no standing to say that you "know" for certain any more than any of us unless you have inside information, and if that is the case, you need to post in spoilers. __________________

05-17-2008, 11:41 AM	#87
lost_grrl Lost Administrator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Earth...I think Posts: 739	I agree with jvince here, the "secondary protocol" and Orchid stuff were in Faraday's journal, where we know he keeps stuff about his scientific studies and personal time travel. Naomi was the only member of the extraction team, which included the scientists, that knew all. Everyone else was strictly told what they needed to know in order to do their particular job. Charlotte very clearly doesn't know about the Orchid or "Secondary Protocol". When Faraday mentions them she says, "What are you talking about" and then he tells her that it means they have to get off of the island. Now, perhaps AFTER that and before they load the Zodiac he fully informs her, but up until that point, she has not idea about either of them. I think that her response, combined with the knowledge that they are not fully informed and the fact that the information about The Orchid and S.P. are in Faraday's journal are meant to tell us that his knowledge is from his "travels". __________________

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05-16-2008, 12:50 PM	#81
Mathemagician Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2	Jbragg, There is a problem with your explanation of the C-4. Black ops style is on a need to know basis only. If you'll remember in TNPLH, Daniel knew that the second protocol was in play and that they were headed for the Orchid station. I'm having difficulty in finding a reason why Daniel would even know about the second protocol. If Daniel knew about the second protocol involving the Orchid station, I think he would have known about the C-4. As would Charlotte, Miles and Frank.

05-16-2008, 01:31 PM	#83
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 537	hey JBragg.. glad you did not leave us.. C-4... where is your evidence that the C-4 was in place beforehand??? you don't have any.... simple.. because it wasn't... fact.. the ships current Captain was surprised abot the interference.. why.. because it wasn't supposed to be there.. not only did Keamy and Gang rig the ship... But also set up their own jamming device... to make sure the ship will not move.... insurance.... why??? Because Keamy just toasted the real Captain... wouldn't you expect perhaps at least a bit of uneasiness from a crew that is already flaking out... No Jbragg.. you still fail that test... as for Sayid... I already said.. that.. If Sayid land right at Beach Camp.. and the time doesn;t seem correct.. I would have a problem with that... I also said.. that.. the time line would be verified IF.... Sayer, Mile and Aaron showed up at the beach the next day.. this came true.... so... it is possible we are have some Fragmentations... from place to place.. or... as is more likely.. traveling 80 nautical miles/93miles at even 30 knots.. takes approx... 3 hours... I have already mentioned fuel... i did this a few days ago... when you look into the Zodiac.. there appears to be a 10 gallon tank.. I could be wrong.. it looks bigger than 5 though... now I have never piloted a Zodiac.. nor do I know what the fuel consumption is for that specific outboard...but this just confirms what i have proposed below... please continue reading... This is simply a continuity error on the shows part... perhaps you may wish to view... http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Errors just so as to get the basic idea of the amount and frequency of these type mistakes... this is not unusual... it can also be less of an error issue.. and more of perhaps a saftey issue... as piloting a Zodiac in open ocean at night may present concerns the production people didn't care to deal with.... I agree.. and said ahead of time.. Sayid's trip could be a problem for me.. but i am willing to accept that... not your mysterious dual time lines... with no evidence accept Editing Anomalies... sorry.... again.. glad you have hung around....

05-17-2008, 05:18 AM	#86
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 537	Jvince.. Daniels Travels??? I don't know... when Faraday hears what is said over the Sat Phone.. he is clearly upset... so upset he says something to Charlotte... of course.. Faraday loves her right?? not really.. he says it in a way that you almost have to think Charlotte should know as well... go back and re-watch it.. so... there are several possibilities.. and the one that fits most.. Every member of this extraction team.. all of them... where briefed...and informed.. The Captain was... but not his crew... he would have to have been... The show has made it quite clear.. even from before the second chopper dropped onto the Island... They are there to get Ben.. THEN KILL EVERY OTHER PERSON ON THIS ISLAND... Charlotte is clearly worried.. did you see her look when Daniel left on the raft... it was one of... Hey Wait... I want to go first....!!! and they are not worried about ORCHID... they are worried about the method Keamy is going to employ to Torch the Island.. Orchid, Ben's last place to hide... once they have Ben... order are... Kill everyone... Naomi is not there to maintain her teams safety.. that leaves. the 4 goofballs... all on their own really.. doesn't it..???? Captains dead... Regina.. she went snorklin...Minkowsky. switched off...Captain..ouchy.. dead to... Doctor...layin on the beach.. not tanning.. getting bluer... all of the teams support... gone.. does anyone think Keamy gives a damn about Naomi's team??? at this point??? I sure don't.. I think the C-4 was rigged by Keamy or on his orders.. I think there was also placed as part of the arming an RF scrambler... Keamy was feeling the preassure, knew the ships personnel were getting flaky.. there was a sabotage..people dying for no apparent reason.. He needed insurance that the ship wasn't leaving... and guess what... it ain't a leavin...

05-17-2008, 12:41 PM	#88
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 537	so it is the agreed considerations of the current events that fuel this ??? no consideration that Ben knows.. everyone will be killed once he is captured.. or that when confronted before.. by Jack.. "are you here to rescue us" Daniel replies "well, not exactly" that Miles has on more than one occasion... intimated Ben is the one they are after and everyone else is expendable.. Faraday may very well be having some kind is Deja Vu... as I have said before.. I think Faraday was one of the Dharma Scientist that was responsible for the First Event... the one that prompted the installation of the Swan Station Fail Safe System.... This does not make him privy to what is happening now.. He heard the name Orchid.. and knows about the Secondary Protocol... How??? Just knowing about the Orchid does not automatically give him knowledge about the SP... of course... Faraday need not be worried about the SP exactly..or that Keamy is going to kill everyone on the island... I guess.... Faraday could just be worried about the activation of the Orchid System.. so... lets assume Faraday hasn't a clue as to the particulars of the SP.... the Torching of The Island... thats not why he is afraid... He is afraid of the Effects of the Orchid System.. as Ben said... it is used as a Last Resort... Hurley asks why.... Ben replies with something to the effects... "Its Unpredictable and Dangerous"....

05-18-2008, 03:01 PM	#89
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 537	as a follow up... is it my imagination.. but Juliette.. who we know has some level of inside tract.. not total... but some... Didn't she respond.. "I have never heard of it" when jack asked her what Faraday meant by Orchid??? this leads me to believe.. Ben and Richard are perhaps the current Others alive with the knowledge of this obscure Dharma Station... Ben also says.. Widmore knows about it... hence.. Keamy knows about it.. if.. Daniel has been to the Island before.. as an original Dharma Scientist or son of an original scientist (we don't know is Dharma people were not allowed to leave the island)... this would also explain his Journal... and the scene we saw in Desmond's Flash Back.. where Daniel as trying to figure out Conscious Time Travel... but as a Dharma member... wouldn't he possibly have that memory???

05-19-2008, 01:45 AM	#90
mugatu22 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Southern California Posts: 255	So, I just rewatched this episode and something occurred to me. In the Paik Industries scene, Mr. Paik's assistants are in his office while Sun's father is complaining. They say, "We don't know how it happened, but they used 5 banks." This wasn't an accident. This is in reference to Sun's controlling purchase of stock. It didn't occur to me until I just re-watched this scene that 5 banks is a little much, isn't it? We have noted on this board already that 1) the Oceanic settlement would likely not be nearly enough $$$ to buy a large company, and 2) what are Sun's motives? IMO, the fact that Sun "used 5 banks" indicates that it wasn't just her money. I'm guessing Ben Linus is in on this purchase. What do you think?