The Good, the Bad, and the Island

[erikau]

So far I haven't seen any discussion on a MAJOR theme from last night's episode "Meet Kevin Johnson," centered in the Temple scene.

Earlier in the episode, when Alex asks Ben why they can't ALL go to the Temple, he tells her it is because the Temple isn't for EVERYONE. This was very clear to me, and is tied to the recurring themes in the show of good and bad. Ben repeatedly says that they are the Good guys, especially in this episode. He also is always having his people make lists (Ethan and Goodwin, Jacob's list, now Michael) and I think the list is to separate the good from the bad. Now exactly how these divisions are made I don't know, but I think they are VITAL to the show.

Ben sent Alex to the Temple because he knows it will be the one safe place on the island when the freighties attack (he says so). I think Ben is WELL aware of the goings on on his island, and wouldn't send his daughter into the woods if he thought she would be in danger. I think that he may have known that Karl and Rousseau would die, but not because he set them up. They weren't on the list, the list of Good People.

Think of the List as a VIP list: If you're on it you can enter the Temple, and if not the Temple guards (man or machine) will shoot you with a lot of tiny darts (that's why it was soundless, blowguns haha). Alex is on the List. Danielle (killer of her crew) and Karl (screwer of Ben's daughter) are not. They are being shot at seemingly from all sides. Karl and Danielle are hit a bunch of times, Alex is unscathed.

Do you really think they just missed her? Even after Danielle goes down and Alex is alone, before she screams that she's Ben daughter, darts (or whatever they are, not important) are still hitting the ground all around her but not hitting her. I don't think she ever would have been hit, because she's on the List and thus is protected. When she yelled who she was the shots stopped all together, because as Ben's kid Alex is probably pretty high on that list.

I thought the scene with Michael and the suitcase bomb fit in the same vein. I don't think it is a dud bomb: I think that Ben was telling the truth that it would work when it is supposed to work.

The flash-back/forwards of Michael, Tom, and the gun are very telling. When Michael CAN'T use the gun to kill himself, Tom tells him that he won't be able to die because the Island (Ben Jacob?) doesn't want him too, YET (like the bomb). More importantly, Tom asks Michael WHAT went wrong: did the gun misfire, did it fall out of his hand, did it just not fire (eh?), did it melt out of his hand (EH?)...and I don't know about anyone else but I immediately got that Matrix "there is no spoon" image in my head. It immediately made think: the Island (once again, Ben?) doesn't want him to die yet, and it can go so far as to MANIPULATE A PHYSICAL OBJECT to do so.

The simple fact is that it was a working gun, Michael pulled the trigger, but he couldn't kill himself. Tom tells him that it's because the Island wasn't allowing it to happen that way, because he had work to do (FOR BEN!...also, reminiscent of what Walkt said to the dying Locke in the mass grave). From what Tom said though, the YET part, made me believe that in the distant future if Michael (after he's done his work) wanted to kill himself with that very same gun and bullets, it would work without a hitch. Likewise, when the Island/Ben is ready for that bomb to kill everyone on the freighter, Michael will be able to hit the same button and instead of a cute little note he'll get a KABOOM!

Back to the good/bad list thing, the reason Ben tells Michael that it isn't time for the bomb to go off YET is because there are GOOD people on the ship still, and he doesn't kill good people (I, for one, believe him). He tells Michael to make a list, I'm assuming to he can do his whole info gathering dealie so he can decide who the good ones are. After the break expect to see Ben somehow trying to divide the freighter folk, getting the Good ones off the ship so that he can kill the other ones.

I think this episode very pointedly tried to make you think about the mythology of the Island, and was pointing at Ben being something more than the regular, albeit weirdo villainy, type guy. There was talk of not only WHO Ben is, but more importantly WHAT Ben is. I can't believe more people haven't brought that up yet. Anyway, I think the Temple will be hugely important to the mythology of the island, and more and more Lists and good/bad themes are becoming more concrete.

[Talontbo]

although we have to wait to see....

the last scene involving Karl, Alex and Crazy Frenchy..

They we high powered rifles... with silencers.... Karl took a clean hit to the chest after one round went through his canteen... Frenchy was slightly propelled forward after taking a round to her backpack (not dead I suspect), Darts would not kick up tree bark and dirt... as we saw... they would stick....

as discussed elsewhere... The Others did have not been shown to have silenced weapons... as a matter of course... the Other killed by Analucia was carrying a folded knife with tang markings that indicated a rather old U.S. Military application.... The weapons in the Swan station were a mix of what looked like classic hunting weapons and possible U.S. and Soviet Assault Rifles...

Weapons located at Hydra were also somewhat older...

We currently have the Helicopter off ship....

Where we have seen more advanced weapons... Michael's scene was the catalyst for this .... "What are you doing?, We are shooting things"

This is not to say older weapons can not be fitted with silencers... they surely can.. and have been for a very long time.... we just haven't been provided that information throughout the series... and yet now, after the Freighties arrive... we possibly have been...

Theories abound... and on the surface, it does appear Ben has set up Karl and Frenchy... and yet... isn't that what we are being led to believe??

I will wait... and continue to think.... as of right now... My money is on the Freighties... and Alex is now their prisoner... Ben is not gonna like that one bit... and not a bad reason to Hunt down and Kill everyone responsible for Alex's Death... and what better person to have than Sayid... someone that took a liking to Frenchy... Alex's mother....and the added bonus of helping to protect the Losties still on the Island...

[erikau]

Originally Posted by Talontbo

although we have to wait to see....

the last scene involving Karl, Alex and Crazy Frenchy..

They we high powered rifles... with silencers.... Karl took a clean hit to the chest after one round went through his canteen... Frenchy was slightly propelled forward after taking a round to her backpack (not dead I suspect), Darts would not kick up tree bark and dirt... as we saw... they would stick....

as discussed elsewhere... The Others did have not been shown to have silenced weapons... as a matter of course... the Other killed by Analucia was carrying a folded knife with tang markings that indicated a rather old U.S. Military application.... The weapons in the Swan station were a mix of what looked like classic hunting weapons and possible U.S. and Soviet Assault Rifles...

Weapons located at Hydra were also somewhat older...

We currently have the Helicopter off ship....

Where we have seen more advanced weapons... Michael's scene was the catalyst for this .... "What are you doing?, We are shooting things"

This is not to say older weapons can not be fitted with silencers... they surely can.. and have been for a very long time.... we just haven't been provided that information throughout the series... and yet now, after the Freighties arrive... we possibly have been...

Theories abound... and on the surface, it does appear Ben has set up Karl and Frenchy... and yet... isn't that what we are being led to believe??

I will wait... and continue to think.... as of right now... My money is on the Freighties... and Alex is now their prisoner... Ben is not gonna like that one bit... and not a bad reason to Hunt down and Kill everyone responsible for Alex's Death... and what better person to have than Sayid... someone that took a liking to Frenchy... Alex's mother....and the added bonus of helping to protect the Losties still on the Island...

The part about the blowdarts was supposed to be a joke. I couldn't tell what the weapons were, they don't show them, so neither do you.

Ben gave them the map to follow. They were where Ben wanted them to be, and I can't imagine Ben putting his daughter in harm's way. It just doesn't make any sense. He wouldn't have sent her there unless he KNEW she wouldn't be hurt, and the only way he'd KNOW that is if it was his men (Richard and Others) doing the shooting. If they really were getting close to the Temple, I think it is reasonable to assume they have some sort of defenses set up.

The good and bad thing is just my theory on WHO is allowed at the Temple and WHY, but I think the shots were fired by people friendly to Ben. The freighties don't know the island well enough to have had an ambush specifically waiting along the path to the Temple (Charlotte and Faraday's map was full of "unknown"s), so why would they have been there, specifically, when Ben and all the others are back at the beach or the Barracks? The only way they could have been there waiting is if Ben (the only one who knew where he sent Alex) told them, and that is ridiculous. He wouldnlt set up his daughter. I don't see how it could be anyone from the freighter because they had ne reason to be there waiting, so that leaves me to believe that it is Alpert or other Ben followers.

Also, with all the mysterious things found on the island so far, and with all that is left to be discovered, I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that the Others could get some silencers.

[OFirefly]

Originally Posted by Talontbo

Theories abound... and on the surface, it does appear Ben has set up Karl and Frenchy... and yet... isn't that what we are being led to believe??

I have a feeling that when (if) we find out who was shooting at Danielle, Alex and Karl it will be yet another Lost "What the..." moment.

[mugatu22]

Originally Posted by erikau

Ben gave them the map to follow. They were where Ben wanted them to be, and I can't imagine Ben putting his daughter in harm's way. It just doesn't make any sense. He wouldn't have sent her there unless he KNEW she wouldn't be hurt, and the only way he'd KNOW that is if it was his men (Richard and Others) doing the shooting. If they really were getting close to the Temple, I think it is reasonable to assume they have some sort of defenses set up.

He wouldnlt set up his daughter. I don't see how it could be anyone from the freighter because they had ne reason to be there waiting, so that leaves me to believe that it is Alpert or other Ben followers.

+1!! My thoughts exactly!

[tailhook]

Originally Posted by Talontbo

although we have to wait to see....

the last scene involving Karl, Alex and Crazy Frenchy..

They we high powered rifles... with silencers.... Karl took a clean hit to the chest after one round went through his canteen... Frenchy was slightly propelled forward after taking a round to her backpack (not dead I suspect), Darts would not kick up tree bark and dirt... as we saw... they would stick....

Hate to break it to you.. but bullets don't propel a body forward. Thats pure Hollywood. Bullets are meant to penetrate not push and very very little if any of their inertia goes into 'pushing you forward' short of having a vest on. Even then if we're talking high-powered rifles the bullet would go through the the vest.. through you.. out the back side and probably through a tree or two before stopping.

Also.. I highly suspect your high powered rifle theory as there was no supersonic crack from the gunshots and at that close a range its not only overkill but going to be heard from miles away. Subsonic rifles are fine and still do the job without bringing unwanted attention. Here is an excerpt from an article concerning it.

Unlike the more powerful supersonic rifles, whose bullets generate their own supersonic crack, subsonic rifles are capable of delivering very quiet, almost undetectable, accurate fire. The sound of a subsonic bullet whizzing through the air at 300 m/s or 1,000 fps is very quiet indeed, certainly less than an arrow from a bow at 60 m/s or 200 fps.

We won't get heavily into the science of it, but a velocity of 1,000 fps (or roughly 300 meters per second) has long been considered optimal, since well before World War II. Any slower, and we're leaving precious velocity on the table. Any faster, and one runs the risk of breaking into the sound barrier (335 m/s or 1,100 fps) in a hot environment, where gunpowder burns more effectively. A warm barrel or a hot cartridge can easily push velocity up another 45 m/s or 150 fps even though the cartridge contains a bullet of the same weight and powder charge.

With a properly designed system, the loudest sound will be that of the bullet strike. With effective suppressor technology we can all but eliminate the sound of a muzzle blast. By hovering around 1,000 fps we can virtually eliminate bullet flight noise. The only thing left is the plop of bullet impact, which can be quite loud on occasion.

Originally Posted by Talontbo

Theories abound... and on the surface, it does appear Ben has set up Karl and Frenchy... and yet... isn't that what we are being led to believe??

There is no doubt it was a setup and an ambush. The only question is who. If it was The Others then certainly they would have no reason to kill either Karl or Rousseau, would know Alex was Ben's daughter... and if they did want to kill them they sure as hell wouldn't need silenced weapons to do the job. They've allready shown they can use freaking slingshots and have sleepytime dart weapons.

Originally Posted by Talontbo

I will wait... and continue to think.... as of right now... My money is on the Freighties... and Alex is now their prisoner... Ben is not gonna like that one bit...

No kidding.. and who fed them the information of where Karl/Alex/Rousseau was going to be? Ben. It was a cold-blooded murder attempt so Alex couldn't be used as a bargaining chip against him. She just happened to think fast enough on her feet to avoid death.

Originally Posted by Talontbo

and not a bad reason to Hunt down and Kill everyone responsible for Alex's Death...

I like this idea but Ben has allready said Sayid has his own axe to grind in the future.. the most likely theory being something happening to Nadia.

-TH

[Talontbo]

contrary to popular belief..

There are high powered rifles that maintain subsonic velocities... and are often used as sniper rifles... High powered rifles do not HAVE TO BE SUPERSONIC....

as for the body being propelled forward... Not always Hollywood... first, in the scene shown.. Rousseau was getting up and moving forward...

I stated.. SLIGHTLY.... when a rifle round strikes a large dense bone... it can and does transfer kinetic energy... thus making the body move... this is also accompanied by muscle/tissue shock and contraction/nerves... I also stated it appeared she may have been struck from behind.. upon further viewing i am not so sure that is the case.. screen caps fail to show an entrance wound on her back... so thats mute... and yet Karl.. when struck merely lulled over... both scenes were within norms IMO...

and though the fantastical movements seen in most Hollywood versions of gunshot victims is,as you said.. Hollywood... some minor motion anomalies and odd occurrences do happen... ever been hunting??? ever seen a deer take a round through both lungs... jump 5' off the ground??? a rather strange sight... reactions are often unpredictable... but i do agree... and i am not trying to argue... inertia for a small object traveling and high speed will tend not to transfer their total energy upon impact...especially through softer materials or tissue...


Ben knows Sayid has an ax to grind... what better reason for Ben to convince.. use... manipulate Sayid.. Sayid is already motivated... angry... and well trained... its perfect, and Ben knows it... but my question still stands... Ben is at war... with who??? I could care less.... I want to know the real reason why... and the secondary reason... if its the capture of Alex... ..

[Talontbo]

hey Erikua,

Shooting Rousseau and Karl... I can see Ben doing it.. but heres the thing... We know the Chopper is off the Freighter??? where could it go?? previous to that we saw the target practice of the heavies on the freighter.. so that is collaborating evidence.. though not 100%... Ben stated... the Temple MAY BE the last safe place on the island..And Rousseau looked a bit disoriented just as they took their break... so she may have been off course... Like you, I find it very unsettling to snipe Karl and Crazy French Lady and run the risk of hitting Alex...

Why not just let them come to the Temple.. separate out Alex from Karl and Rousseau and then kill them.. why risk.. sniping in heavy foliage from a distance??? Just doesn't seem right... If I as Ben... no way would I have ordered such a bushwhack...

as for Richard??? well... he could easily be making other plans... the Templies.. may not be Bennies gang no more....

[tailhook]

Originally Posted by Talontbo

contrary to popular belief..

There are high powered rifles that maintain subsonic velocities... and are often used as sniper rifles... High powered rifles do not HAVE TO BE SUPERSONIC....

Actually... looking at the literal definition.. there isn't one.. so ya... i guess we can call any rifle a high-powered one. Kind of like how all small pistols were 'Saturday Night Specials'.

Originally Posted by Talontbo

as for the body being propelled forward... Not always Hollywood... first, in the scene shown.. Rousseau was getting up and moving forward...

We can split hairs real fine on this one. The inertia of the bullet did not propel her forward... her physical reaction to the bullet propelled her forward.

Originally Posted by Talontbo

I stated.. SLIGHTLY.... when a rifle round strikes a large dense bone... it can and does transfer kinetic energy... thus making the body move...

It makes the bone move.. not the body. Nearly all body movement is an example of a secondary effect of the body moving in reaction to having ben struck by the bullet and while you might have a spasm or as you said contraction/nerves.. a mythical 'force' propelling the body forward based upon the impact of a bullet from the direction it came is just that. We're really just quibbling over words though :>.

Its the same misconception that causes people to believe that Kennedy had to be shot from the front because his head went back and to the left :>.

-TH

[Talontbo]

seems... splitting hairs is a standard forum occurrence and not a problem for me at all.. sometimes I fail to define to the exact detail... I know what I think.. and hope others can tell from what I write... sometimes that just is not so... sometimes my information is correct.. other times it is not... being critiqued is always welcomed... and dialog, ideas and perspectives need to be shared... at least for me they do... I always enjoy a good counter point of view (presented or examined).. whether I agree with the view point I put forth or not... much like a defense lawyer... he does not have to believe his client is innocent in order to argue his clients case... its often the argument that provides the excitement.. not the verdict.. This forum has some very smart characters to say the least... and LOST is an amazing avenue to navigate... it demands full attention and supplies awesome brain treats... so far... I woul dhave to say.. it has lived up to its early reputation... and I look forward to similar discussions and mental exchanges.... smiles...