The Sub and Locke - Page 3

tailhook · 03-22-2007, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skipjack

Watch that scene again, you never really see the sub exploding.

Take a look at these two pics... one just prior to Locke getting on the sub and one of it exploding.

Is it just me or is the explosion on the opposite side of the dock?

Of course, it could mean he sent it out to sea a little ways and then, swam back to shore and detonated it.

You have to be kidding me right? One of the problems with people analyzing the show is they don't default to the obvious. It all has to be 'intended'.

The show couldn't afford to blow up an actual bloody submarine ok? So yes.. the explosion is a little off center because there is no ACTUAL submarine there when the special effects guys set of the charges. :P But you can bet your bottom dollar that submarine is hosed. The intention of what happened was clear.

One of the things he may have done though is stash his pack with the rest of his items in the water or somewhere along the dock underwater for later retrieval knowing there was a good likelihood he would be captured either before or shortly after a blast that almost guaranteed to bring everybody from the Compound down on him. Hence why he was found soaking wet.

03-23-2007, 03:17 AM

You can only operate a sub from the inside, if he submerged it, he would have to have opened the top hatch which would be pretty impossible and if he could it would flood the sub. I think it's toast but it is very strange why he was dripping wet though.

thirdflr · 03-23-2007, 06:43 AM

I posted this on the home page yesterday and just found this thread this morning:

Why the sub is still intact
1 - Locke knew the where the light switch was.
2 - He went directly to the bridge
3 - He was soaking head to toe when walking down the dock WITHOUT his pack. Like Jack Bauer the pack is his security blanket. He ALWAYS has it.
4 - Subs can take an ENORMOUS amount of firepower on the exterior, 1 pack of C4 would not do it!
5 - As Locke is walking down the dock, you can see a slight surf (foam action) where the sub was. Which was at the end of the dock but anchored to the LEFT SIDE! the sub was not there. I gather Locke submersed the SUB down into the water and then placed the C4 pack to the end of the dock
6 - The explosion from two different shots (angles) show that it occurred dead center of the dock NOT to left side where the sub was
7 - When Locke was eating supper/Lunch when Peter (the soon-not-to-be step brother) showed up at his apartment, there is a frame of Military patches behind the couch. One that I can make out is this one found here. Guess what LOSTIES It is a NAVY patch??!!!!
I have not found the rest of them but I fairly certain this one is A NAVY PATCH

www.4armedforces.com/product/3003_72085

So maybe Locke isn't lying either.

nemesise1977 · 03-23-2007, 07:07 AM

Ok Im mad and want to blow up a sub, what would I do. Step one try to get it to fill with water, why...water trans mits the shockwave better and will cause more damage, step 2 find the fuel source. The sub has an engine, most likely desiel. put the exploseves there, take out the engine room and dont worry much if the hull has a hole, if sub is underwater and has no engine...it is pretty much going nowhere without serious help.

As for his pack, who knows maybe he left it behind because it was in his way, or he figured he was done with using it. So if lock set the sub to submerge with the hatch still open it woulod have flodded the sub, if it was not moored when he did so it could have drifted off some, and he would get wet swimming back to shore.

rwilson2006 · 03-23-2007, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tailhook

One of the things he may have done though is stash his pack with the rest of his items in the water or somewhere along the dock underwater for later retrieval knowing there was a good likelihood he would be captured either before or shortly after a blast that almost guaranteed to bring everybody from the Compound down on him. Hence why he was found soaking wet.

TH - that has to be the best theory that I have heard, that would explain everything... if he does get captured, he won't lose his stuff if it is hidden...

As far as the sub itself, there is no way that he could submerge the sub and then get out... The hatch door would not open after it is submerged, a safety precaution... Having said that I still like the idea of him moving the sub and hiding it elsewhere for later...

The problem is in the previews for next week, it looked like Sayid went underwater to look for something, I wonder if he was looking for remnants of the destroyed sub...

Gartism · 03-23-2007, 12:26 PM

Yeah, TH -- I think you nailed it again. Hiding the pack is better than leaving it behind...that thing has been his baby since S1.

How long before Alex frees Sayid and they go find "Mom"?

halexis · 03-24-2007, 12:14 PM

I definitly think you are on to something here with the hiding of the sub and his pack.. I do not think he would have submerged the sub and then blew up the dock though. How would he get back in the sub? So i believe he moved it to maybe a different location swam back to the dock and then blew the c4 up either in the water or connected it to the dock. I also believe he probably left his Pack under water thats why we saw Sayid swimming maybe recovering the pack. We dont really know how long he had so anything is possible. As for debris it was in the water their is no way for them to know if the sub was under water when it blew. Which would would limit the amount of debris the others could see especially at night. As for the patch if he was a military buff he probably bought the patch just like on that link where we could by it for $35(free shipping too!!) I dont believe he was a admiral in the navy just really into war games and that sort of stuff..

thechamferedsphere · 03-24-2007, 10:50 PM

I think the sub was moved or submerged as well.

A) Watching the camera angles, it's very clear to me they are composing the shots to HIDE the sub when Locke returns from the dock. some of them are downright awkward compared to the opening shots of the dock. This could be a continuity error, but I think Lost is generally good about that kind of thing. If there was going to be an exploding sub, I think they would have had more of a sub exploding establishing shot (even if they didn't blow up the sub set, they would have shown a frame or two of the sub before they composited a explosion over it) They are purposely hiding the sub explosion in this episode.

B) Locke was wet, he was in the water. I think the others used the sub to capture the sailboat, they were able to get out then without surfacing... the Sub probably has some sort of airlock(e) :P or diving entrance, so Locke could get out when it was underwater. or, he could have set it submerge, and then gotten out just before it went under, OR, he could have left it above water, piloted it down the shore, then jumped out and swam to the pier. and then he would have set explosives on the dock, walk away and let it blow up.
others knowledge of losties/piloting the sub

C) How did John know how to pilot the sub? I think john could have picked it up from his wargames/retreats, he obviously has a interest in military training. Alternatly, He also has been shown to enjoy computer games, possibly he played a sub simulation program ( a stretch, but, likely enough).

D) if John DID have sub training, how did te others NOT know that he did? I think the others information on the losties is extensive, but not total. They have the type of information you get from reports and intelligence, not mind reading. They know real names, jobs, places of employment, etc. To reinforce this, they even have mikhale studying what I believe is a dossier on the DHARMA communications guy's personal life so that he can convincingly "play" him over the radio. The others may indeed have mindreaders, or other clairvoyance, but wy would they scan locke to see if he knew how to pilot a sub? (and when would they have had time). **OR** Ben DOES know that locke can pilot the sub, and doesnt want Locke to know he knows, and it's a double con :P.

D) The wreckage, why would the others fall for it? Well, it's dark, they saw the big explosion, and it's Just a ruse for a little while. The dock will be blown up, and the wreckage would sink anyways, it could be a long time (if ever) before the others decide to try and salvage the sub.

So, that's why I think the sub is still intact.

Screens of positions of the sub before the expolion, and after.

Attachment 590
Attachment 591
Attachment 589

Sun Ra | Space is the Place

tailhook · 03-25-2007, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunRa

I think the sub was moved or submerged as well.

A) Watching the camera angles, it's very clear to me they are composing the shots to HIDE the sub when Locke returns from the dock. some of them are downright awkward compared to the opening shots of the dock. This could be a continuity error, but I think Lost is generally good about that kind of thing. If there was going to be an exploding sub, I think they would have had more of a sub exploding establishing shot (even if they didn't blow up the sub set, they would have shown a frame or two of the sub before they composited a explosion over it) They are purposely hiding the sub explosion in this episode.

How exactly do you think they made a 'sub' on short notice? They rented one out for the week. Its pretty safe to say they'd be on the hook for the cost if they brought it back in itty, bitty pieces.

I'll go with the submerged aspect... its reasonable to lower it enough to flood the compartment which would make it nearly impossible for them to raise even if the explosives didn't do their job and would certainly get Locke soaking wet head to toe as he climbed out while it filled with water. Now.. the best place for the explosives are inside the sub. a) it shreds every control panel into itty bitty pieces and b) if the explosion is big enough it'll put a lot of damn holes in it.

Interesting to note a Depth Charge works exactly the opposite. But that takes being submerged a bit deeper because the concept is that the shockwave from the explosion compromises the integrity of the hull. When that happens the pressure of deep water will crush the sub on its own. In all these movies where you see a Depth Charge going off in the same frame as the sub. If that were to actually happen you'd have one dead sub. Its for cinematic sake. Close counts in horseshoes, hand grandes, and depth charges.

But make no mistake.. the sub is gone. You know why? One of the first things The Others are going to do is assess the damage. If its gone they'd simply torture Locke for the whereabouts. It would be pretty silly to try to say Locke hid the sub when they're just going to immediately confirm it or not.

Quote:

B) Locke was wet, he was in the water. I think the others used the sub to capture the sailboat, they were able to get out then without surfacing... the Sub probably has some sort of airlock(e) :P

I'm sure there is some sort of emergency hatch and certainly Locke could have flooded the boat with it. But you've seen way too many movies if you think they didn't just surface and hop out. There is literally no reason for a 'diving entrance'. Especially given the fact they had the boat they gave Michael for any diving needs.

Quote:

or diving entrance, so Locke could get out when it was underwater. or, he could have set it submerge, and then gotten out just before it went under, OR, he could have left it above water, piloted it down the shore, then jumped out and swam to the pier. and then he would have set explosives on the dock, walk away and let it blow up.
others knowledge of losties/piloting the sub

And you still haven't gotten past the main problem that there would be DEBRIS. If he didn't blow up the sub it would be fairly evident when they don't find pieces of the sub.

Quote:

C) How did John know how to pilot the sub?

There was no evidence in the show that he did. Just assumptions and guesses on your part that you're building on top of each other. All that was shown was he got in the sub.. did some stuff.. and then cut away to him walking up the dock soaking wet and the big explosion going off behind him. The Others will check the wreckage... note their sub is toast... and the story will move on.

Quote:

D) The wreckage, why would the others fall for it? Well, it's dark, they saw the big explosion, and it's Just a ruse for a little while. The dock will be blown up, and the wreckage would sink anyways, it could be a long time (if ever) before the others decide to try and salvage the sub.

Its not even a ruse for a little while.. you walk down the dock and see if the sub is intact which it won't be. There is no reason to try a swerve on this plot point. Locke wanted it destroyed.. now it is and will have to deal with the consequences of that action.

halexis · 03-25-2007, 09:55 AM

But make no mistake.. the sub is gone. You know why? One of the first things The Others are going to do is assess the damage. If its gone they'd simply torture Locke for the whereabouts. It would be pretty silly to try to say Locke hid the sub when they're just going to immediately confirm it.

And you still haven't gotten past the main problem that there would be DEBRIS. If he didn't blow up the sub it would be fairly evident when they don't find pieces of the sub.

There was no evidence in the show that he did. Just assumptions and guesses on your part that you're building on top of each other. All that was shown was he got in the sub.. did some stuff.. and then cut away to him walking up the dock soaking wet and the big explosion going off behind him. The Others will check the wreckage... note their sub is toast... and the story will move on

You said it your self their is no evidence in the show that makes it definitive the sub is gone or that they looked for debris. if locke did blow the sub underwater their may not be debris on the surface of the water. And why do you assume the others just did not believe locke blew it up? if he hid it they saw an explosion they come to the conclusion that the sub has been blown up.. Kind of like you have assumed it has blown up no? you have not seen debris yet, you did not see what locke was up to inside the sub.. Your just being narrow minded. You may be right the sub could be gone and thats that, but there is still the same chance the sub is still around. Right now all anyone can do is speculate so i would not rule out anything till more info is provided...

03-23-2007, 12:26 PM	#26
Gartism Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 1,590	Yeah, TH -- I think you nailed it again. Hiding the pack is better than leaving it behind...that thing has been his baby since S1. How long before Alex frees Sayid and they go find "Mom"? __________________ -G Red...Neck...Man I dare you: http://www.myspace.com/ryangartley

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

03-23-2007, 03:17 AM	#22
Markus.Darkus Posts: n/a	You can only operate a sub from the inside, if he submerged it, he would have to have opened the top hatch which would be pretty impossible and if he could it would flood the sub. I think it's toast but it is very strange why he was dripping wet though.

03-23-2007, 06:43 AM	#23
thirdflr Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 23	I posted this on the home page yesterday and just found this thread this morning: Why the sub is still intact 1 - Locke knew the where the light switch was. 2 - He went directly to the bridge 3 - He was soaking head to toe when walking down the dock WITHOUT his pack. Like Jack Bauer the pack is his security blanket. He ALWAYS has it. 4 - Subs can take an ENORMOUS amount of firepower on the exterior, 1 pack of C4 would not do it! 5 - As Locke is walking down the dock, you can see a slight surf (foam action) where the sub was. Which was at the end of the dock but anchored to the LEFT SIDE! the sub was not there. I gather Locke submersed the SUB down into the water and then placed the C4 pack to the end of the dock 6 - The explosion from two different shots (angles) show that it occurred dead center of the dock NOT to left side where the sub was 7 - When Locke was eating supper/Lunch when Peter (the soon-not-to-be step brother) showed up at his apartment, there is a frame of Military patches behind the couch. One that I can make out is this one found here. Guess what LOSTIES It is a NAVY patch??!!!! I have not found the rest of them but I fairly certain this one is A NAVY PATCH www.4armedforces.com/product/3003_72085 So maybe Locke isn't lying either.

03-23-2007, 07:07 AM	#24
nemesise1977 Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 85	Ok Im mad and want to blow up a sub, what would I do. Step one try to get it to fill with water, why...water trans mits the shockwave better and will cause more damage, step 2 find the fuel source. The sub has an engine, most likely desiel. put the exploseves there, take out the engine room and dont worry much if the hull has a hole, if sub is underwater and has no engine...it is pretty much going nowhere without serious help. As for his pack, who knows maybe he left it behind because it was in his way, or he figured he was done with using it. So if lock set the sub to submerge with the hatch still open it woulod have flodded the sub, if it was not moored when he did so it could have drifted off some, and he would get wet swimming back to shore.

03-24-2007, 12:14 PM	#27
halexis Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 11	I definitly think you are on to something here with the hiding of the sub and his pack.. I do not think he would have submerged the sub and then blew up the dock though. How would he get back in the sub? So i believe he moved it to maybe a different location swam back to the dock and then blew the c4 up either in the water or connected it to the dock. I also believe he probably left his Pack under water thats why we saw Sayid swimming maybe recovering the pack. We dont really know how long he had so anything is possible. As for debris it was in the water their is no way for them to know if the sub was under water when it blew. Which would would limit the amount of debris the others could see especially at night. As for the patch if he was a military buff he probably bought the patch just like on that link where we could by it for $35(free shipping too!!) I dont believe he was a admiral in the navy just really into war games and that sort of stuff..

03-24-2007, 10:50 PM	#28
thechamferedsphere Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 18	I think the sub was moved or submerged as well. A) Watching the camera angles, it's very clear to me they are composing the shots to HIDE the sub when Locke returns from the dock. some of them are downright awkward compared to the opening shots of the dock. This could be a continuity error, but I think Lost is generally good about that kind of thing. If there was going to be an exploding sub, I think they would have had more of a sub exploding establishing shot (even if they didn't blow up the sub set, they would have shown a frame or two of the sub before they composited a explosion over it) They are purposely hiding the sub explosion in this episode. B) Locke was wet, he was in the water. I think the others used the sub to capture the sailboat, they were able to get out then without surfacing... the Sub probably has some sort of airlock(e) :P or diving entrance, so Locke could get out when it was underwater. or, he could have set it submerge, and then gotten out just before it went under, OR, he could have left it above water, piloted it down the shore, then jumped out and swam to the pier. and then he would have set explosives on the dock, walk away and let it blow up. others knowledge of losties/piloting the sub C) How did John know how to pilot the sub? I think john could have picked it up from his wargames/retreats, he obviously has a interest in military training. Alternatly, He also has been shown to enjoy computer games, possibly he played a sub simulation program ( a stretch, but, likely enough). D) if John DID have sub training, how did te others NOT know that he did? I think the others information on the losties is extensive, but not total. They have the type of information you get from reports and intelligence, not mind reading. They know real names, jobs, places of employment, etc. To reinforce this, they even have mikhale studying what I believe is a dossier on the DHARMA communications guy's personal life so that he can convincingly "play" him over the radio. The others may indeed have mindreaders, or other clairvoyance, but wy would they scan locke to see if he knew how to pilot a sub? (and when would they have had time). OR Ben DOES know that locke can pilot the sub, and doesnt want Locke to know he knows, and it's a double con :P. D) The wreckage, why would the others fall for it? Well, it's dark, they saw the big explosion, and it's Just a ruse for a little while. The dock will be blown up, and the wreckage would sink anyways, it could be a long time (if ever) before the others decide to try and salvage the sub. So, that's why I think the sub is still intact. Screens of positions of the sub before the expolion, and after. Attachment 590 Attachment 591 Attachment 589 Sun Ra \| Space is the Place

03-25-2007, 09:55 AM	#30
halexis Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 11	But make no mistake.. the sub is gone. You know why? One of the first things The Others are going to do is assess the damage. If its gone they'd simply torture Locke for the whereabouts. It would be pretty silly to try to say Locke hid the sub when they're just going to immediately confirm it. And you still haven't gotten past the main problem that there would be DEBRIS. If he didn't blow up the sub it would be fairly evident when they don't find pieces of the sub. There was no evidence in the show that he did. Just assumptions and guesses on your part that you're building on top of each other. All that was shown was he got in the sub.. did some stuff.. and then cut away to him walking up the dock soaking wet and the big explosion going off behind him. The Others will check the wreckage... note their sub is toast... and the story will move on You said it your self their is no evidence in the show that makes it definitive the sub is gone or that they looked for debris. if locke did blow the sub underwater their may not be debris on the surface of the water. And why do you assume the others just did not believe locke blew it up? if he hid it they saw an explosion they come to the conclusion that the sub has been blown up.. Kind of like you have assumed it has blown up no? you have not seen debris yet, you did not see what locke was up to inside the sub.. Your just being narrow minded. You may be right the sub could be gone and thats that, but there is still the same chance the sub is still around. Right now all anyone can do is speculate so i would not rule out anything till more info is provided...