5 years later.. 'String Theory'

[tailhook]

Originally Posted by veljik

I was thinking about why claire is alive in the future, but sylar is also alive, and it really confuzzles me. They saved the cheerleader, and Hiro claims to have cut Sylar, but he's still alive, meaning they haven't saved the cheerleader, but maybe they have saved the cheerleader, but in a different place, at a different time, and they're trapped in another outcome that resulted from the same actions, along Hiro's web of lines and ropes and ****.

Popped this into its own thread.

All in all a great episode and they certainly tried to tie a lot of things together in a neat bow... but I certainly feel like there are some gaping holes as a result.

First and foremost they need to explain why Peter Petrelli has a scar? I think we can agree that in the future 5 years later the events that we've seen in Heroes have definately occured. Hiro went back in time 5 years to subway, gave Peter message.. went back to his own time.

Peter ends up saving the cheerleader so he now has her powers as a result of being close to her. So the question becomes.. why does he have the scar? We've now seen what her powers do when up close and personal with nuke guy. He blew up in her house with her there.. went outside an overcooked slab of meat and everything regenerated. So even if we try to blame it on him going nuclear that doesn't wash.. so why?

We now know that Avatar girl buys the farm via Sylar. We can assume that either he had that power and was someone else.. or Peter comes into contact with Avatar girl before the bomb goes off. I think thats the case because its the only reason I could see that people think Sylar blew up New York City.

So the original timeline had Sylar nuking New York City. The subway modification now has Peter Petrelli nuking New York City and Sylar getting away to wreak much president as Nathan havoc. And the final timeline will be what happens now that Hiro has gone back now that he possesses information that he could only have gotten 5 years in the future. I.e. how to kill Sylar.

If you read last week's post.. I was a bit concerned about playing both stories. But what they did with it this week ended up getting it covered. Basically that the nuke going off WAS going to be the future... until Hiro jumped forward to learn how to change it. That then keeps it somewhat linear.

Sooooooooooo... off the beating track.. how do you keep Peter Petrelli from exploding? Um.. keep him the **** away from Niki/Jessica. Anyone got money that the reason why Peter goes boom and he can't control the power is that he runs into Niki/Jessica and generates himself a seperate personality? Could that personality be Nathan? I'd almost say that between what Sylar did this week and the possible combination of her power... that Nathan Petrelli is a marked man.

Basically Sylar kills Avatar girl.. then he kills Nathan in order to take over his life. But Peter and Niki/Jessica were in close proximity at the time he dies and this then puts Nathan in Peter.. which is signified via the scar. Claire at bomb going off is real(with obvious ways of survival).. but visible Nathan is Sylar and Peter's personality is now Nathan due to Niki/Jessica's ability and in turn has no idea how to control Peter's powers and explodes(once again.. obvious how he survives). Sylar as Nathan then flies away as the bomb explodes.

This is one of the main reasons Peter and Niki/Jessica.. two characters that haven't even met at the time Hiro jumped forward 5 years... ended up getting it on 5 years in the future.

Now.. at what point Hiro attempts to kill Sylar... NOT SURE.

Pretty wacky mind job though. There is definately more to the bomb going off then meets the eye.. even with the current episode.

[veljik]

eloquently explained...

[Matthew Bennet]

Originally Posted by tailhook

First and foremost they need to explain why Peter Petrelli has a scar?

Well, if we think about it, Peter could have run into the Haitian at some point during the 5 years and gotten slashed across the face, leaving the mark. Easy explanation, though, this time around Peter won't get the scar, or shouldn't if everything works out anyway.

We now know that Avatar girl buys the farm via Sylar. We can assume that either he had that power and was someone else.. or Peter comes into contact with Avatar girl before the bomb goes off. I think thats the case because its the only reason I could see that people think Sylar blew up New York City.

Yes, Candus(sp?) does buy the farm via Sylar. In Peter's vision of the future, Sylar could easily be pretending to be Nathan at that point. Therefore, giving 'Nathan' a new motive for covering up the fact that Peter exploded, and blaming it on Sylar. It explained that Nathan blamed the exploding on Sylar, and was able to get away with it because everyone that he told wasn't there.
And the people that were there probably didn't remember or died. I mean, if you were close enough to see that Peter exploded, you were pretty much dead, right?

So the original timeline had Sylar nuking New York City.

No, the original timeline had Peter nuking New York City, just everyone believing that it was Sylar. I think that what is accomplished by the Cheerleader change is that Sylar can now be killed, therefore, the future isn't bad anymore. Sure, Peter still explodes, but now you actually have Nathan leading the world, as opposed to Mr.Kill-people-to-eat-their-brains.

Actually having Nathan in the White House, will ease the world into a non-hostile status towards the 'specials'. After all, it seems that the 'specials' were meant to overtake regular folk as the dominant species, since they seem to be increasing in their numbers exponentially.

Now.. at what point Hiro attempts to kill Sylar... NOT SURE.

I believe Future Hiro's exact words were, "The day after the election." Which, subsquently, is the day Peter does the whole exploding thing.

Pretty wacky mind job though. There is definately more to the bomb going off then meets the eye.. even with the current episode.

Agreed.

[stinkysaurous]

Lets begin with Peter's scar. I'm kind of with you on this in that I believe it's out of place and not really explainable by anything we've seen. To be honest, I think it was just for aesthetics and nothing else. So lets just call the scar an "oopsie" on the part of the writers (it could also have been the actors choice. an attempt to be a little darker, tougher perhaps?).

Next we have the Sylar scapegoat situation. First off, we don't know the details surrounding the explosion. Maybe there were no witnesses (who would be able to see nuclear blast and survive?). Who knows. What we do know is that Nathan blamed Sylar and got away with it. Until Sylar killed him. Let's stay away from unnecessarily complicated explanations.

Sooooooooooooo....onto your exploding Peter theory. Go read the newest graphic novel on the NBC website. Niki and Peter meet after the explosion. After the explosion. After. So you are obviously wrong. We aren't really sure why Peter explodes, but the most probable cause is that he lost control of his powers. How and why has yet to be explained. All we can do is make an educated guess. Educated guess. Educated. Guess. Educated.

[tailhook]

Originally Posted by stinkysaurous

Sooooooooooooo....onto your exploding Peter theory. Go read the newest graphic novel on the NBC website. Niki and Peter meet after the explosion. After the explosion. After. So you are obviously wrong.

None of that is part of show canon. Basing a rebuttal on a novel source is like basing an interpretation of the Bible on the words of Jim Jones.

[tailhook]

Originally Posted by Matthew Bennet

Well, if we think about it, Peter could have run into the Haitian at some point during the 5 years and gotten slashed across the face, leaving the mark. Easy explanation, though, this time around Peter won't get the scar, or shouldn't if everything works out anyway.

Doesn't wash.. Claire is alive 5 years later in "String Theory". Peter saved Claire at homecoming. Peter MUST have Claire's power. So the scar has to either be one bigass plot hole.. or be explained by different means.. hence my theory concerning Niki/Jessica.

We are most definately looking at a future that is a result of Hiro having changed history on the subway. This was made clear. All the way down to Suresh remembering the line 'Save the cheerleader.. save the world.' which led him to help Young Hiro escape. Peter 5 years on HAD her powers... yet still sported the scar.

Originally Posted by Matthew Bennet

And the people that were there probably didn't remember or died. I mean, if you were close enough to see that Peter exploded, you were pretty much dead, right?

Cause obviously New York City has nothing in the way of cameras and video. If this event was occuring with people swarming to the scene and someone was uplinking live video it can be presumed Peter was the focal point of whatever was going on. Hence the illusion that the last thing people saw was Sylar going nuclear as a result of having absorbed Avatar girl's power sometime either soon.. or because Sylar had taken it and was there. Either way allows Peter the power to project the illusion of Sylar and if the last thing the live broadcast sees is Sylar going all nuke.. its pretty clear cut he a) died in the blast and b) was responsible.

I do agree though that Nathan being there coming out of the door could easily have been missed hence the story he wasn't in town that day.

Originally Posted by Matthew Bennet

I think that what is accomplished by the Cheerleader change is that Sylar can now be killed, therefore, the future isn't bad anymore. Sure, Peter still explodes, but now you actually have Nathan leading the world, as opposed to Mr.Kill-people-to-eat-their-brains.

Halfway agree with you. I definately agree with your assessment that Nathan goes on to lead the world as a result of Sylar now being removed... but the 5 years on was a direct result of Hiro's intervention on the subway. This was clear because Claire was in the episode. The entire point of the episode was that Hiro's second jump.. the one 5 years into the future is what ultimately gives Hiro the final information via Isaac's comics needed to actually kill Sylar. Armed with that information he has now gone back to the present and presumably will use it to avert what we saw to the new future that presumably ends up with as you say.. the real Nathan taking power.

Basically the way this tracks down is. Hiro changes history via subway. This then has the direct result of changing the circumstances behind Isaac's involvement and eventual death whereupon just before he creates new comics on how to kill Sylar in this new future. His new death is what causes Hiro to jump into the future to discover nothing has changed whereupon he discovers Isaac's final panels and understands how he is to kill Sylar when the time comes. In essence.. the first change on the subway is what caused the second change of coming forward 5 years which will ultimately change the future after he gets back.

[Matthew Bennet]

Originally Posted by tailhook

None of that is part of show canon. Basing a rebuttal on a novel source is like basing an interpretation of the Bible on the words of Jim Jones.

Not really. Look, I think the novels should be considered canon too, mainly because they have never been wrong before. They have always fit with the storyline. They told us that Lindermann could heal things, before we saw it on the show. NBC wouldn't put anything out there contrary to the real storyline, because that would just have people confused.

Using your analogy, basing a rebuttal on a graphic novel is more like interpreting the Bible with a comic book created by God to show the details. It's only using the writer's notes, and answers a few minor questions that don't really add up to much of anything anyway.

Only this time, it allows the unique perspective that lets us know that you are wrong.

[tailhook]

Originally Posted by Matthew Bennet

Not really. Look, I think the novels should be considered canon too, mainly because they have never been wrong before.

Thats great... feel free. Nobody else does though.. including the writers themselves. They aren't beholdent to other people's work unless there is clear cut information from them that they signed off adhering to said information and in fact provided it themselves. Nothing of the sort has ever been stated about Heroes novel canon that I know of and until it happens... it simply has no merit in any discussion. So feel free to believe it but it proves nothing.

An example of outside information being considered show canon would be like The Lost Experience. In that case the writers expressly stated most of it was signed off by them and a lot of the information for it came directly from them. But some knockoff book by a hack writer done on the quick for a new series is simply not canon until the writers/creator state that it is.

Originally Posted by Matthew Bennet

They have always fit with the storyline. They told us that Lindermann could heal things, before we saw it on the show. NBC wouldn't put anything out there contrary to the real storyline, because that would just have people confused.

To the 'known' storyline. But if the writers decided late in the season to make a swerve that caused storyline X to deviate from information in novel Y... novel Y simply gets punted. Thats how it works in the business and NBC isn't going to shed tears over a deviation or two from 'novels'. As long as the TV series storyline is coherent that is all anybody truly cares about. The writers simply aren't beholdent to some pulp writer's work.

Originally Posted by Matthew Bennet

Using your analogy, basing a rebuttal on a graphic novel is more like interpreting the Bible with a comic book created by God to show the details. It's only using the writer's notes, and answers a few minor questions that don't really add up to much of anything anyway.

Until of course.. the time comes that they do.

Originally Posted by Matthew Bennet

Only this time, it allows the unique perspective that lets us know that you are wrong.

I might certainly be wrong.. and probably am. But you certainly won't be able to 'prove' it with trash novel information. Its worked this same way for well over 15 years and it won't change simply because you don't understand how it works. When the rubber meets the road TV writers control everything... novel writers(graphic or otherwise) and the information they put out control nothing and are ALWAYS the first thing to be overridden in the case of a show conflict. And its done by five magic words:

'The novel isn't necessarily canon'

[kaleidoscope_eyes]

About Peter's Scar
In the future, Peter is a whole lot better at controlling his powers, as we've seen. Blowing up a city with a whole lot of people in it must have really sucked for him, so I thought that maybe he controlled his healing powers and left it there as a reminder of what he did and what he failed to stop, I guess like a physical scar for his emotional scar. I know it's a longshot, but it was a simple explanation for when I needed one when I was watching the show. Either it's not all that important, in which case the writers could have evened it out with two simple lines of dialogue, or it's really important, in which case we'll find out in time.

Who Blew Up New York?
I honestly don't think it would have been that hard to blame the bomb on Sylar, even if Peter was the one who actually exploded. Within that five years, Sylar could have become an even more notorious and wanted killer, a "terrorist," and people may have sort of expected this sort of thing from him, rather than from the President's brother. It's not like there were any camera crews ready to film the disaster, and any equipment that was close enough to see the actual source of the explosion was probably destroyed. Lots of smoke in the aftermath - plenty of time for Peter to begin regenerating and get away before the emergency help rush in while everyone is dying. Or, people could just think he was another casualty. The logistics of this check out, I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Future Nathan/Peter

Anyone got money that the reason why Peter goes boom and he can't control the power is that he runs into Niki/Jessica and generates himself a seperate personality? Could that personality be Nathan? (...) Basically Sylar kills Avatar girl.. then he kills Nathan in order to take over his life. But Peter and Niki/Jessica were in close proximity at the time he dies and this then puts Nathan in Peter.. which is signified via the scar.

Are you saying that future Peter is actually future Nathan? Interesting theory, but I'm not totally convinced yet. Peter seemed incredibly surprised at the end of the episode to find out that Nathan was actually Sylar. If Nathan WAS Peter, it seems like he would have been a little more active in trying to figure out who was impersonating him. Also, in the future Peter tells Nikki that Jessica is gone. I'm not sure how reliable this is, though, because in the past DL, etc, has said multiple times that Jessica was gone, too. Plus, where would this theory leave the real Peter? I think it makes sense that he and Nikki would get together after the bomb because they both suffered a bunch from it. Nikki lost her son and husband, and Peter, well, caused the explosion. I haven't read the graphic novel, but the story makes sense.

Why, Then, Would Peter Explode?
No idea. Linderman promised him candy.

[poker rob]

Hey all, first time poster. I have not had time to read the whole board yet and this may have been talked about earlier. How ever here it is and please point me to it if it has been discussed else where.

What bothered me about this episode was the fact that Claire was still alive 5 years later. In the show they discussed that fact that sylar had killed the cheerleader and taken her powers to heal. Thus when Hiro stabbed him he did not die and the city blew up.

The big news in the future was that Claire was still alive back in our story line and that now Hiro could kill Sylar!

Thus if she was alive 5 years later how did Sylar have the ability to heal himself???????