Buffy The Vampire Slayer and AtS

[LovelyLene]

i think so too... I've seen all seasons even if it wasn't in the right order. I first watched season 6 and 7 on TV, then season 5 on DVD, then season 1 and 2, when there were re-runs and then seasons 3 and 4 on DVD which I had borrowed from a friend.

I have to admit, I don't think I remember much from season 1. I adore Spike, and since he wasn't in that season it just didn't make that much of an expression I guess, lol!

And to show that I'm definitely a Spike fan: I only have season 5 on DVD from "Angel"... They should have made a spin-off with Spike, lol!

XXX

[Calena]

Oh girl, you and I would argue till infinity if we were to go into discussing Buffy then.

I'm up for it if you are.

I'm a Spuffy girl through and through. I liked Angel as a character ,but Angelus is when I liked him best. Relationship wise Spuffy has my heart on that show .

I love Angel, I love Angelus, and I love it most of all when it's not certain whether it's Angel or Angelus talking. (remember how they tricked Faith in S3?)
I love the Angelus flashbacks, and I own all 7 seasons of Buffy and all 5 of Angel, plus the comics of Angel, Buffy and Spike, which I haven't read yet, though.

Are you aware that Buffy never loved Spike? I won't deny Spike was truly, madly, deeply in love with Buffy, but that wasn't reciprocated in the slightest. Buffy used Spike, and Spike was aware of that. If Spike hadn't been such a cool character it would have been pathetic.
I am not bashing Spike, I tremendously love Spike, too. He is the coolest, with the best one liners. It's just that in my book nothing can beat brooding, tall, dark and handsome.

I agree, I would have loved a Spike spin off, too.
LovelyLene, S2&3 are the best seasons of Buffy.

girls, we don't need to watch the whole first season. What about the first 2 eps (since I've already watched them and I like the Angel appearances) and then ep7 (I think), when Buffy finds out Angel is a vampire, and then the last ep?
Then we could continue with S2.

LovelyLene, you can find it online and thus join us!

[DramaDiva]

I love Angel, I love Angelus, and I love it most of all when it's not certain whether it's Angel or Angelus talking. (remember how they tricked Faith in S3?)
I love the Angelus flashbacks, and I own all 7 seasons of Buffy and all 5 of Angel, plus the comics of Angel, Buffy and Spike, which I haven't read yet, though.

I loved when they tricked Faith. That was one of the best episode of that season IMO. I loved Faith also though, even when she was a bad , bad girl.

Are you aware that Buffy never loved Spike? I won't deny Spike was truly, madly, deeply in love with Buffy, but that wasn't reciprocated in the slightest. Buffy used Spike, and Spike was aware of that. If Spike hadn't been such a cool character it would have been pathetic.
I am not bashing Spike, I tremendously love Spike, too. He is the coolest, with the best one liners. It's just that in my book nothing can beat brooding, tall, dark and handsome.

This is obviously debatable. I will agree that in season 6 she used him up and spit him out. Season seven on the other hand I have to disagree. I will quote the great Joss Whedon here. He told SMG in the last scene that Spike was in 'to be in love with him' . That is right out of the horses mouth, not to mention that the last words SMG ever said on the show was 'Spike' .

girls, we don't need to watch the whole first season. What about the first 2 eps (since I've already watched them and I like the Angel appearances) and then ep7 (I think), when Buffy finds out Angel is a vampire, and then the last ep?
Then we could continue with S2.

What if we watch the first two episodes and then the finale. That way we watch all the best bits of season 1? Then we can discuss on Monday and move on to season 2 ?

[Calena]

I loved when they tricked Faith. That was one of the best episode of that season IMO. I loved Faith also though, even when she was a bad , bad girl.

Oh, I loved Faith, too. Poor Giles thought Buffy was a hard to manage Slayer. And Faith really only ever wanted to be loved.

Have you watched Angel, Drama?

This is obviously debatable. I will agree that in season 6 she used him up and spit him out. Season seven on the other hand I have to disagree. I will quote the great Joss Whedon here. He told SMG in the last scene that Spike was in 'to be in love with him' . That is right out of the horses mouth, not to mention that the last words SMG ever said on the show was 'Spike' .

Really? Hm. Can't remember that right now. Obviously she was impressed that Spike sacrificed his life to save the world (which then turned out he didn't. But he thought he would die, so ok, that he didn't really die doesn't make his sacrifice worth any less) Maybe Buffy loved him in that moment, because he was going to sacrifice himself to save the world. Still not comparable to what she felt and still feels to this day for Angel.
Not to mention how poetic it is - The Vampire Slayer & the Vampire with a Soul.
(Yes, Spike got himself his sould back, very impressive. But Angel unarguably was the orginal Vampire With A Soul)

What if we watch the first two episodes and then the finale. That way we watch all the best bits of season 1? Then we can discuss on Monday and move on to season 2 ?

Agreed. (only that I'll still watch that ep with the first Angel&Buffy kiss , but I'm 2 eps ahead of you girls anyway.)

[DramaDiva]

Oh, I loved Faith, too. Poor Giles thought Buffy was a hard to manage Slayer. And Faith really only ever wanted to be loved.

Have you watched Angel, Drama?

Yep, I have watched Angel and I loved Faith there also.
Actually, Ats is going to be part of my next Spuffy argument.

Really? Hm. Can't remember that right now. Obviously she was impressed that Spike sacrificed his life to save the world (which then turned out he didn't. But he thought he would die, so ok, that he didn't really die doesn't make his sacrifice worth any less) Maybe Buffy loved him in that moment, because he was going to sacrifice himself to save the world. Still not comparable to what she felt and still feels to this day for Angel.
Not to mention how poetic it is - The Vampire Slayer & the Vampire with a Soul.
(Yes, Spike got himself his should back, very impressive. But Angel unarguably was the original Vampire With A Soul)

Angel was Buffy's first love. I don't think that ever goes away. I don't think the feelings that are shared ever go away. They may diminish over time . but they are just hidden deep. So for me Bangel was like puppy love. I don't think Buffy loves Angel nearly as much as she once did . Just for the simple fact that in Ats Andrew came to get the crazy ass potential and told Angel that Buffy told him to becasue she thought Angel was shady.

I also have another quote for you ...it may not be exact , but luckily for me I had a Buffy marathon last month so it's kinda fresh still. In the episode where she is going to go on her date with Principal Wood. She clearly says 'Why does everyone think I am still in love with Spike?' . That would imply that she was in love with him ...Freudian slip, I think so becasue she never admitted openly that she loved him.

On to the soul ...ok yeah Angel was the first Vamp with a soul ...but....it was a curse . He didn't want it , didn't fight for it. It was just given to him as a punishment. Spike on the other hand, went after it, chased it down, and went though only gods know what kind of torture to be the kind of man Buffy deserved. So while Angel was the original Vamp with a soul yes, Spike was the one that deserved and worked for his soul.

[Calena]

I think you girls should watch ep 1x7, Angel. It's a very good ep, one of the best of S1 and it's vital to the Bangel relationship.

So for me Bangel was like puppy love.

In season 1, yes, definitely. Angel before she knew that he was a vampire was a high school girl's crush. And in ep 7 you see his reaction when he first comes into her room and realizes that she is just a 16 year old high school girl and Angel knows he should bail. But alas, he is so intrigued by her he can't leave. (At this stage it wasn't real love yet for neither of them).

But over the course of S2 the realtionship grew and would have continued to do so if Angel hadn't turned into Angelus (not that I am mourning that, I love Angelus. And of course it's such a metaphor for boys turning on girls after the girls had given in to sex. Not very subtle, but genius)

That in S3 they continued their relationship, despite what Buffy had to suffer by Angelus and the fact that she killed him, is for me proof that it's more than puppy love, it's destiny and poetic and romantic and real love and it makes me swoon.
(BTW I absolutely loved the S2 finale. Having to kill Angel, when she knew Willow's spell had worked and it was Angel, not Angelus she was killing - the only other season finale that ever made that much impact on me was SPN S3 with the shot of Dean in hell. My highest compliments for both, JW and EK)

Just for the simple fact that in Ats Andrew came to get the crazy ass potential and told Angel that Buffy told him to becasue she thought Angel was shady.

I can't really remember that comment. I have been accused of selective memory. Maybe Buffy wanted to prevent a "I can smell him on you" complain-a-thon? For whatever reason she didn't want to face Angel at that point.

She clearly says 'Why does everyone think I am still in love with Spike?' . That would imply that she was in love with him ...Freudian slip, I think so becasue she never admitted openly that she loved him.

Even if she was in love with Spike, which for me is not prooven, the quote shows she doesn't love him at the point the comment was made.

On to the soul ...ok yeah Angel was the first Vamp with a soul ...but....it was a curse . He didn't want it , didn't fight for it. It was just given to him as a punishment. Spike on the other hand, went after it, chased it down, and went though only gods know what kind of torture to be the kind of man Buffy deserved. So while Angel was the original Vamp with a soul yes, Spike was the one that deserved and worked for his soul.

True. Spike choose to get a soul despite knowing what he was in for and that's very heroic and admirable. I am not anti-Spike. Spike is a great, cool, satiric, heroic character. But his getting his soul back, while proofing how much he loves Buffy, and I never disputed he did, doesn't do anything to proof that Buffy ever really loved him.

[DramaDiva]

In season 1, yes, definitely. Angel before she knew that he was a vampire was a high school girl's crush. And in ep 7 you see his reaction when he first comes into her room and realizes that she is just a 16 year old high school girl and Angel knows he should bail. But alas, he is so intrigued by her he can't leave. (At this stage it wasn't [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]real [COLOR=blue ! important]love[/color][/color][/color] yet for neither of them).

No No, you can't pull that one on me. We both know full well that Angel had been watching her far longer than she had been in Sunnydale. He watched her at her old school. He knew full well how old she was. Which kinda makes him creepy if you ask me considering he was too old for her even before he was turned.

It might not have been puppy love for Angel (because he was over 200 after all) but for Buffy IMHO it always was. Even in season 2 , I will give you season 3 lol.

I can't really remember that comment. I have been accused of selective memory. Maybe Buffy wanted to prevent a "I can smell him on you" complain-a-thon? For whatever reason she didn't want to face Angel at that point.

Yeah you do have selective memory. It had nothing to do with having a complain a thon ..this was after Sunnydale. She said it because Angel was working for the bad guys which for her made him shady. Oh and while on the topis oc Andrew and things he said or was said to him . I have another for you . When Spike and Angel go after The Immortal ....Andrew tells them ..Buffy loved you both . I would imagine he knew since they shared an apartment together.

Even if she was in love with Spike, which for me is not

prooven, the quote shows she doesn't love him at the point the comment was made.

She loved him when she said this...it was season 7..

[Calena]

No No, you can't pull that one on me. We both know full well that Angel had been watching her far longer than she had been in Sunnydale. He watched her at her old school. He knew full well how old she was. Which kinda makes him creepy if you ask me considering he was too old for her even before he was turned.

How old was he when he was turned? Not much older than 20? Ok, you have a point there. But she matured a lot in a short time, so by the time of S3 the age difference didn't really matter. However the basic problem of the vampire-human relationship that she'd have grown old and he wouldn't would still have been a big problem even if they had stayed together.

It might not have been puppy love for Angel (because he was over 200 after all) but for Buffy IMHO it always was. Even in season 2 , I will give you season 3 lol.

Ok, so just for the sake of this point I am now going to make I will give you season 7 and pretend for a moment that I believe Buffy really loved Spike throughout S7.
Then you have one season of real love between Bangel and one season, the same amount of time, between Spuffy. Which would make the whole who did Buffy love more, more maturly more truly a kind of a draw, wouldn't it?

She said it because Angel was working for the bad guys which for her made him shady.

but he did that for the greater good, to prevent them from doing evil.

She loved him when she said this...it was season 7..

The moment she said this she wasn't in love anymore (if she ever was), because she told people she didn't still love him.

[DramaDiva]

How old was he when he was turned? Not much older than 20? Ok, you have a point there. But she matured a lot in a short time, so by the time of S3 the age difference didn't really matter. However the basic problem of the vampire-human relationship that she'd have grown old and he wouldn't would still have been a big problem even if they had stayed together.

He was 27 when he was turned ...can you say creep stalker..lol. So yeah even as a human he was much , much too old for high school Buffy no matter her maturity level. At least Spike waited until she was in college ...well actually after she dropped out of college ..but you do have a point no human/vampire relationship could ever work considering one would always age and one never would, but it sure does make for good TV with few a few exceptions.

Ok, so just for the sake of this point I am now going to make I will give you season 7 and pretend for a moment that I believe Buffy really loved Spike throughout S7.
Then you have one season of real love between Bangel and one season, the same amount of time, between Spuffy. Which would make the whole who did Buffy love more, more maturly more truly a kind of a draw, wouldn't it?

Ok a draw for now until we watch more and get to the nitty gritty of the heated discussions that I know we will have.

but he did that for the greater good, to prevent them from doing evil.

He may have but in her eyes working with the evil is just the same as being evil.

The moment she said this she wasn't in love anymore (if she ever was), because she told people she didn't still love him.

She was just lying to her self ...that is why at dinner with said principal she left to go with Spike ...hehe

[julius1234]

The show is my all time Favorite and i have seen all the episodes.