Did dharma get compromised?

KauaiBunny · 02-19-2009, 04:29 PM

Can someone explain something to me. Ben helped the others wipe out Dharma back during the purge. Ms. Hawking is working with Ben at Dharma's Lamp Post station in Los Angeles. While I can understand the Others having free reign over Dharma facilities on the island, how do they get free reign over Dharma facilities on the mainland? Is Ms. Hawking not really tightly associated with Ben/Others? She nonetheless never bothered to mention to them anything about Desmond being on the island with a sailboat (that news came as a surprise to Ben when he found out about it).
Or is it possible that Ben has somehow worked an alliance with a large portion of Dharma (much like he's worked an alliance with portions of the losties).
That Ben is one manipulative cunning little bastage if you ask me.

KauaiBunny · 02-21-2009, 01:49 PM

As additional evidence...
Way back in season 2 (i believe), there was a 'dharma food drop'. If the Roger Workman (err Linus) dharma were the ones who did the drop, why didn't they just send their own forces in to retake the island by the same means?

Talontbo · 02-21-2009, 02:19 PM

hey Bunny,

The Food Drop has always held a bit of advanced mystery for me..

Why?

I have ponder an Automated System.

But if this is the case, then someone off Island would have to have, at the very least, crated up the shipment..

Of course when this occurred The Others were still in control... Ben could have ordered the Food Drop,,,,

And we have to assume, that a drop is made at each and every manned Dharma Station as well as the Barracks.. We can assume this because The Barracks is still using Dharma food... all these years later...

So.. how much off island control did Ben or whomever, assume of Dharma..??

Here the BIG Question comes into play...

After the Purge.. did Ben have to MOVE THE ISLAND?

It is easy is speculate that answer would be yes... this way he can buy the time to Infiltrate, Destroy and Take Command of all the Islands outside support mechanisms... Like future Food Drops...

Ben and the Others had for the most part accepted the Losties Presence.. perhaps only to have subjects for Juliette's Research.. so long as they stayed on their side of the Island... So maybe Ben was willing to allow the Food Drop..

Remember the Food drop came during a preplanned Swan Lock Down.. unlike the times Kelvin forced a lock down in order to continue work on the Map...This preplanned Lock Down just happened to occur while Ben was inside Swan.. further throwing question into the timing of this event...

Either way, and for whatever reasons we will probably never be privy to... The Food Drop is still just one of the minor questions I would loved to have answered...

bsmittyau · 02-21-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talontbo

hey Bunny,

Here the BIG Question comes into play...

After the Purge.. did Ben have to MOVE THE ISLAND?

Actually I think that Ben may have tricked Widmore into moving the island after this purge. I imagine that Widmore, being a "grunt" in the 1940s-1950s as we saw in the past, was probably still on the island when Dharma started. I'm sure he had grown higher in rank with the Others by this time, and was probably one of the higher ranking members there, next to Richard. Richard's "title" is still a bit of a mystery to me, but we know he's always been a high ranking Other...It wouldn't be surprising to me if Widmore had become the #1 or #2 guy by this point, as Richard always seems to "promote" someone to take his place as leader for whatever reason (Ben, Locke, possibly Widmore?)

Lets just say that Alpert struck a deal with Ben...whether its because Ben was "special", or because Richard just wanted him to think he was so that they could wipe out Dharma...either way we know that this was the case. Ben at this point would probably be afraid that Dharma would come back to the island, probably to seek revenge on him for betraying them, etc etc. Being the crafty guy he is...he knows they need to move the island.

There may be two options for how this came about imo...Marvin Candle had obviously known about the time traveling and the wheel before Dharma was wiped out...I don't know that Ben Linus would've known seeing as he was so young...that may have been classified information, but they could've possibly told him about it first.

If that's the case, he'd just tell Widmore that "Jacob" says that he needs to move the island, whether or not Jacob communicated with Ben or not. Up to this point, we've never seen that happen, so i bet Ben is just using it as a bit of a charade to get Widmore to do what he wants.

Second option could be that Jacob actually did communicate with Ben, and either told Ben that he needed to move the island, or told Ben that Widmore needed to move it. I imagine though, that like Locke, if Jacob wanted someone else to move the island, he'd probably tell them directly. That makes me think that if Jacob did communicate with Ben, he told him to move it, and Ben decided to pawn the job off on Widmore so that he can stay on the island and lead the others, now that he speaks with Jacob etc etc. From this point he'd obviously be out of favor with Jacob, and Jacob probably wouldn't communicate with him any further, which is another support to people thinking Ben is just making things up when he claims to have been given orders from Jacob.

Sorry to be long winded, just got to thinking about these possibilites when I read the last post...

Talontbo · 02-21-2009, 03:17 PM

hey Mitty,

I like your thinking, however there is this to consider...

Widmore has a Penny... was she or was she not born on the Island?

Widmore also has established a massive Global Empire, would he have had enough time to accomplish this..

Dharma hit the Island in the early 70's I guess Ben was approx 10-11 perhaps..

We know the purge occurred quite a few years later.. Not using Ben's appearance, but using his Fathers... perhaps as much as 20 years later..placing the Purge date in the early 90's...

Somehow the timeline of Widmore Moving the Islnf after the Purge just seems a bit off... that and where was Penny actually born...

Though on this last one... and something that has been discussed in minor detail in other threads.. Penny, Desmond, Charlotte, Faraday... etc etc etc... being island babies..

we know for a fact... John Locke is not an Island baby.. nor is Ben.. one could also perhaps place Juliette in this group.... though this is not confirmed...

If memory serves me correctly.. Charlotte intomated or came right out and said.. she was from the island.. perhaps born there.. based on her age... she would most certianly have been born after Jughead was buried... so the idea of the radition leak as the pregnancy cause tends to be dispelled...

So, knowing all this.. could Widmore have been the sacrifice????

Not sure I can accept it at this point.. but we do know... somehow... Widmore holds Ben responsible for his losing the island... if were lucky.. we will get an answer to the where, when and how of this..

But I won't hold me breath... This show has become notorious for not answering questions...

bsmittyau · 02-25-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsmittyau

Actually I think that Ben may have tricked Widmore into moving the island after this purge. I imagine that Widmore, being a "grunt" in the 1940s-1950s as we saw in the past, was probably still on the island when Dharma started. I'm sure he had grown higher in rank with the Others by this time, and was probably one of the higher ranking members there, next to Richard. Richard's "title" is still a bit of a mystery to me, but we know he's always been a high ranking Other...It wouldn't be surprising to me if Widmore had become the #1 or #2 guy by this point, as Richard always seems to "promote" someone to take his place as leader for whatever reason (Ben, Locke, possibly Widmore?)

Lets just say that Alpert struck a deal with Ben...whether its because Ben was "special", or because Richard just wanted him to think he was so that they could wipe out Dharma...either way we know that this was the case. Ben at this point would probably be afraid that Dharma would come back to the island, probably to seek revenge on him for betraying them, etc etc. Being the crafty guy he is...he knows they need to move the island.

There may be two options for how this came about imo...Marvin Candle had obviously known about the time traveling and the wheel before Dharma was wiped out...I don't know that Ben Linus would've known seeing as he was so young...that may have been classified information, but they could've possibly told him about it first.

If that's the case, he'd just tell Widmore that "Jacob" says that he needs to move the island, whether or not Jacob communicated with Ben or not. Up to this point, we've never seen that happen, so i bet Ben is just using it as a bit of a charade to get Widmore to do what he wants.

Second option could be that Jacob actually did communicate with Ben, and either told Ben that he needed to move the island, or told Ben that Widmore needed to move it. I imagine though, that like Locke, if Jacob wanted someone else to move the island, he'd probably tell them directly. That makes me think that if Jacob did communicate with Ben, he told him to move it, and Ben decided to pawn the job off on Widmore so that he can stay on the island and lead the others, now that he speaks with Jacob etc etc. From this point he'd obviously be out of favor with Jacob, and Jacob probably wouldn't communicate with him any further, which is another support to people thinking Ben is just making things up when he claims to have been given orders from Jacob.

Sorry to be long winded, just got to thinking about these possibilites when I read the last post...

I hate to say it, but...Boo-Yah!

bsmittyau · 03-01-2009, 09:46 AM

And since theres no action in any of these threads, I just thought I'd point out...Boo-Yah!

Hooray for my theory :P

BSTMSTR · 03-17-2009, 09:41 AM

Im reading this after "LaFleur" has aired, and I'm wondering if the baby that Juleit helps Amy give birth to is DESMOND now... before I was speculating Ethan... But the idea that island baby's are special.. and all the innuendos that that Desmond is so special... except Horace and Amy are not Brittish.. but whatever...

Talontbo · 03-18-2009, 01:59 PM

hey BST,

I rather doubt that the baby we saw delivered was Desmond... here is why..

The Others, in the Past from our present.. PURGED the INITIATIVE.... I would have to say this also included Horace's wife and child/children...

Problem with this theory is... The Jumps...

We now have Sawyer, Juliette, Kate, Jack, Jin and Sayid... They all know about the Purge.. Miles probably did not.. but may now know for various reasons....

Any one of the above could do something that would alter the time line... Assuming altering it was what really happened to begin with... this way it would conform to The Faraday Rule...

We also haven't seen the arrival on the Linus's.... nor have we seen mention of this as of yet.. so, is it safe to say, the Linus's came later than 1977? not sure really...

Is it possible that the Time Line we saw from the opening Season One Episode was in fact what was not supposed to happen, and all the corrections will be made now???? so by the end of season 6.... Dharma is alive and thriving???? The Hostiles Foiled by their own meddling... ????

Stay Tuned... its sure to get weirder and weirder....

KauaiBunny · 03-18-2009, 04:39 PM

Maybe my prior assumption was incorrect, but I had gotten the impression that when Horace first met Roger 'Workman' Linus he was married/going-with Olivia. In LaFleur, there's no mention/site of Olivia. I had kind of thought that Olivia had died or something like that. But she was involved (either through Dharma or through a relationship) with Horace from the time Ben was born till his pre-teens. If he was married to Olivia, that relationship would have had to already ended and Olivia would no longer be in the picture (unless it was an amicable divorce - which is unheard of in TVland).

I'm also curious why Horace thought 'LaFleur' wasn't Dharma material, but did think Roger 'the alcoholic bum' Linus was. Could he have known that he was supposed to bring young Ben to the island. When Horace showed up to guide Locke to Ben's cabin, he had a nose bleed. The same kind of nose bleed one gets after doing some time travel... hmmmm. Something tells me we're gonna be seeing a lot more of Horace as the season progresses.

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02-19-2009, 04:29 PM	#1
KauaiBunny Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 214	Did dharma get compromised? Can someone explain something to me. Ben helped the others wipe out Dharma back during the purge. Ms. Hawking is working with Ben at Dharma's Lamp Post station in Los Angeles. While I can understand the Others having free reign over Dharma facilities on the island, how do they get free reign over Dharma facilities on the mainland? Is Ms. Hawking not really tightly associated with Ben/Others? She nonetheless never bothered to mention to them anything about Desmond being on the island with a sailboat (that news came as a surprise to Ben when he found out about it). Or is it possible that Ben has somehow worked an alliance with a large portion of Dharma (much like he's worked an alliance with portions of the losties). That Ben is one manipulative cunning little bastage if you ask me.

02-21-2009, 01:49 PM	#2
KauaiBunny Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 214	As additional evidence... Way back in season 2 (i believe), there was a 'dharma food drop'. If the Roger Workman (err Linus) dharma were the ones who did the drop, why didn't they just send their own forces in to retake the island by the same means?

02-21-2009, 02:19 PM	#3
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	hey Bunny, The Food Drop has always held a bit of advanced mystery for me.. Why? I have ponder an Automated System. But if this is the case, then someone off Island would have to have, at the very least, crated up the shipment.. Of course when this occurred The Others were still in control... Ben could have ordered the Food Drop,,,, And we have to assume, that a drop is made at each and every manned Dharma Station as well as the Barracks.. We can assume this because The Barracks is still using Dharma food... all these years later... So.. how much off island control did Ben or whomever, assume of Dharma..?? Here the BIG Question comes into play... After the Purge.. did Ben have to MOVE THE ISLAND? It is easy is speculate that answer would be yes... this way he can buy the time to Infiltrate, Destroy and Take Command of all the Islands outside support mechanisms... Like future Food Drops... Ben and the Others had for the most part accepted the Losties Presence.. perhaps only to have subjects for Juliette's Research.. so long as they stayed on their side of the Island... So maybe Ben was willing to allow the Food Drop.. Remember the Food drop came during a preplanned Swan Lock Down.. unlike the times Kelvin forced a lock down in order to continue work on the Map...This preplanned Lock Down just happened to occur while Ben was inside Swan.. further throwing question into the timing of this event... Either way, and for whatever reasons we will probably never be privy to... The Food Drop is still just one of the minor questions I would loved to have answered...

02-21-2009, 03:17 PM	#5
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	hey Mitty, I like your thinking, however there is this to consider... Widmore has a Penny... was she or was she not born on the Island? Widmore also has established a massive Global Empire, would he have had enough time to accomplish this.. Dharma hit the Island in the early 70's I guess Ben was approx 10-11 perhaps.. We know the purge occurred quite a few years later.. Not using Ben's appearance, but using his Fathers... perhaps as much as 20 years later..placing the Purge date in the early 90's... Somehow the timeline of Widmore Moving the Islnf after the Purge just seems a bit off... that and where was Penny actually born... Though on this last one... and something that has been discussed in minor detail in other threads.. Penny, Desmond, Charlotte, Faraday... etc etc etc... being island babies.. we know for a fact... John Locke is not an Island baby.. nor is Ben.. one could also perhaps place Juliette in this group.... though this is not confirmed... If memory serves me correctly.. Charlotte intomated or came right out and said.. she was from the island.. perhaps born there.. based on her age... she would most certianly have been born after Jughead was buried... so the idea of the radition leak as the pregnancy cause tends to be dispelled... So, knowing all this.. could Widmore have been the sacrifice???? Not sure I can accept it at this point.. but we do know... somehow... Widmore holds Ben responsible for his losing the island... if were lucky.. we will get an answer to the where, when and how of this.. But I won't hold me breath... This show has become notorious for not answering questions...

03-01-2009, 09:46 AM	#7
bsmittyau Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 11	And since theres no action in any of these threads, I just thought I'd point out...Boo-Yah! Hooray for my theory :P

03-17-2009, 09:41 AM	#8
BSTMSTR Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 31	Im reading this after "LaFleur" has aired, and I'm wondering if the baby that Juleit helps Amy give birth to is DESMOND now... before I was speculating Ethan... But the idea that island baby's are special.. and all the innuendos that that Desmond is so special... except Horace and Amy are not Brittish.. but whatever...

03-18-2009, 01:59 PM	#9
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	hey BST, I rather doubt that the baby we saw delivered was Desmond... here is why.. The Others, in the Past from our present.. PURGED the INITIATIVE.... I would have to say this also included Horace's wife and child/children... Problem with this theory is... The Jumps... We now have Sawyer, Juliette, Kate, Jack, Jin and Sayid... They all know about the Purge.. Miles probably did not.. but may now know for various reasons.... Any one of the above could do something that would alter the time line... Assuming altering it was what really happened to begin with... this way it would conform to The Faraday Rule... We also haven't seen the arrival on the Linus's.... nor have we seen mention of this as of yet.. so, is it safe to say, the Linus's came later than 1977? not sure really... Is it possible that the Time Line we saw from the opening Season One Episode was in fact what was not supposed to happen, and all the corrections will be made now???? so by the end of season 6.... Dharma is alive and thriving???? The Hostiles Foiled by their own meddling... ???? Stay Tuned... its sure to get weirder and weirder....

03-18-2009, 04:39 PM	#10
KauaiBunny Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 214	Maybe my prior assumption was incorrect, but I had gotten the impression that when Horace first met Roger 'Workman' Linus he was married/going-with Olivia. In LaFleur, there's no mention/site of Olivia. I had kind of thought that Olivia had died or something like that. But she was involved (either through Dharma or through a relationship) with Horace from the time Ben was born till his pre-teens. If he was married to Olivia, that relationship would have had to already ended and Olivia would no longer be in the picture (unless it was an amicable divorce - which is unheard of in TVland). I'm also curious why Horace thought 'LaFleur' wasn't Dharma material, but did think Roger 'the alcoholic bum' Linus was. Could he have known that he was supposed to bring young Ben to the island. When Horace showed up to guide Locke to Ben's cabin, he had a nose bleed. The same kind of nose bleed one gets after doing some time travel... hmmmm. Something tells me we're gonna be seeing a lot more of Horace as the season progresses.