Did dharma get compromised? - Page 2

Talontbo · 03-18-2009, 05:27 PM

hey Bunny,

Not sure we will see a lot of Horace from here on out.. But one thing is for sure...

There is a SPLIT TIME LINE.... Hawking warned of the UNPREDICTABILITY of returning to the Island in a manner not consistent with the first journey...

AARON, was clearly missing...

You observation of the Nose Bleed suffered by Horace was right on the money... DREAM or MEMORY????

This is something I have stated in another thread....

The Vision Locke had when he saw Yemi's Plane, while in the Jungle with Boone... VISION or MEMORY???? We know he saw Yemi's plane crash during one of the Jumps... he followed it and was shot by Ethan.. only to jump again and meet Richard... Richard tells Locke it was in fact Locke that told him he would be there...

Did we miss some Jumps??? my guess... yes, we missed some..

As for Linus Sr.... when Horace first met him, he was young and had just lost his wife giving birth to Ben.... perhaps Horace wasn't aware of the personal conflicts Linus Sr. was suffering from some 12 yrs later... The time they came to the island..

This brings up you thought regarding Olivia... it could be we haven;t seen that yet.. as it hasn't occured...

We are currently seeing Dharma.. PRE YOUNG BEN!!!! or so it would seem...as no mention by Juliette, Sawyer or Jin has been made while spending 3 yrs waitng for friends to show up...

The we have Locke in Now Time it appears... The Enhanced version is specific to say... Caesar was searching Ben's Office on Hydra... Ben is clearly POST PURGE!!!

Guess Hawking was correct... The Entry into the Window was in fact Unpredictable..

But here is the crazy thing..

Jack... in 1977 Dharma Time.. will he see Christian>>> his dad.. who by all acounts is not Dead Yet????

tailhook · 03-19-2009, 08:48 AM

Well,

Given last nights episode I think the following is true.

The presence of the Losties caused The Purge.

I also think its clear that Sayid goes after Ben as a child to prevent the death of his wife, throwing the events leading to The Purge in motion. It is very likely that Ben both joined The Hostiles and caused The Purge out of self-defense.

If thats the way they're headed.. they're also going to be running into casual-time issues if they don't split the timeline. Namely... effect will be preceding cause. In other words, if the Losties being there led to The The Purge(effect) then they did so before they ever went back in time in the first place(cause). In order to avoid this you would have to have a split-timeline of which both dovetailed to the same point(course correction), but having very different histories.

The problem with this is they may try to tie in that the reason both Widmore and Ben wanted The Losties to get back was that they had met them previously in the past. Ben specifically may have been driven to believe the Oceanic 6 never left the Island and were never supposed to leave the island because he had encountered them in the past and it was the primary reason he tried so hard not to get them to leave.

You have two competing philosophies and they're treading on very dangerous ground here and if they don't do it in a way that sorts these issues out the story is not going to hold up.

-TH

BSTMSTR · 03-19-2009, 10:28 AM

I think Horace definately knew about Ben when they happened to be driving along the road and stumbled across the Linus's in need of help... Just like Ethan and Richard cherry-picked Juliet with the knowledge that she was to be the one to help give birth to Ethan... But as far as Horace and Olivia being a married couple... assumptions?... I can't remember if she was introduced as his wife or not... but either way, they could have just been working together... and lied about their relationship... If Dharma was compromised, remember that the fish usually stinks from the head back... Horace is on a first name basis with Richard... Locke's vision of him is wearing a Dharma suit, but building Jacob's cabin... and Jacob is the so-called leader of the Others... I speculate that Horace was once a Hostile now too! Born on the island, himself, maybe...

Talontbo · 03-19-2009, 01:34 PM

Hey U2,,
both thoughts are quite provocative...

Hook... perhaps you thought (Losties caused the Purge) is in fact the opposite.. Widmore may be orchestrating this TO PREVENT THE PURGE..

He if fact Forced The Issue of moving the island by sending the Freighter... Abaddon also said He Help People Get To Where They Need To Be... obviously for Widmore...

Ben said... Moving the Island was Dangerous, "A Measure Of Last Resort". And yet, it would seem Widmore needed this to happen... for more than one reason... But the most important reason was to see the EMP... so it could be Detected in Antarctica... This would allow a more accurate calculation of WHERE THE ISLAND WOULD BE NEXT!!

Desmond Close Call... may not have be Fortuetous.. but Predicted by the All Knowing Crazy Jewelry Store Lady...

Ben has no real choice but to rely on her for his path back... and yet, we know she is also hooked up with Widmore... Where do Hawkings real Loyalties lay??? My guess is with Widmore...

Reason.... Widmore was on the Island long before Ben was recruited by Richard...

And here in lies the real question...

Is Widmore making a play to wrestle back the island and Remove Richard????

Fact is... Eliose was there.. we saw her.... so ask... why isn't she with Richard now??? Couls it be.. she is upset that Ben was installed as Leader and not Widmore???

BST,

Horace with Olivia,

I thought in a previous post that Ben and Linus SR had not been on the Island YET.. The Sayid exchange with Ben was a monkey in the wrench... be that as it may...

Things have in fact Changed Dramatically...

Lostpedia has noted Olivia as either Dead or Divorced from Horace... simple assumption with so little understanding or imagination....

We do not know how the JUMPS affected the future... Locke showing up in the early 50's.... could have drastically changed Richards previous Time Line... this could have easily been altered again when Sawyer spoke with him in 1974 and confirmed What Richards Thinks Happened...

These actions, subtle as they seem... could be Time Altering... And could have possibly change events just enough that Olivia is never even married to Horace. Of course... she could have simply died not long after Ben and Linus Sr come to the island... which now looks like close to 1974 and the same time Sawyer, Juliette, Jen and Miles show up.....

The Faraday Rule may not be as solid as Daniel thinks... or...

as I have posted...

What we are seeing is What was Supposed To Be.. and this would make changing it acceptable...

And what WE SAW.... 100 Days Island Time... should never have happened,.....

tailhook · 03-19-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talontbo

Hey U2,,
both thoughts are quite provocative...

Hook... perhaps you thought (Losties caused the Purge) is in fact the opposite.. Widmore may be orchestrating this TO PREVENT THE PURGE..

He if fact Forced The Issue of moving the island by sending the Freighter... Abaddon also said He Help People Get To Where They Need To Be... obviously for Widmore...

Ben said... Moving the Island was Dangerous, "A Measure Of Last Resort". And yet, it would seem Widmore needed this to happen... for more than one reason... But the most important reason was to see the EMP... so it could be Detected in Antarctica... This would allow a more accurate calculation of WHERE THE ISLAND WOULD BE NEXT!!

Desmond Close Call... may not have be Fortuetous.. but Predicted by the All Knowing Crazy Jewelry Store Lady...

Ben has no real choice but to rely on her for his path back... and yet, we know she is also hooked up with Widmore... Where do Hawkings real Loyalties lay??? My guess is with Widmore...

Reason.... Widmore was on the Island long before Ben was recruited by Richard...

And here in lies the real question...

Is Widmore making a play to wrestle back the island and Remove Richard????

Fact is... Eliose was there.. we saw her.... so ask... why isn't she with Richard now??? Couls it be.. she is upset that Ben was installed as Leader and not Widmore???

BST,

Horace with Olivia,

I thought in a previous post that Ben and Linus SR had not been on the Island YET.. The Sayid exchange with Ben was a monkey in the wrench... be that as it may...

Things have in fact Changed Dramatically...

Lostpedia has noted Olivia as either Dead or Divorced from Horace... simple assumption with so little understanding or imagination....

We do not know how the JUMPS affected the future... Locke showing up in the early 50's.... could have drastically changed Richards previous Time Line... this could have easily been altered again when Sawyer spoke with him in 1974 and confirmed What Richards Thinks Happened...

These actions, subtle as they seem... could be Time Altering... And could have possibly change events just enough that Olivia is never even married to Horace. Of course... she could have simply died not long after Ben and Linus Sr come to the island... which now looks like close to 1974 and the same time Sawyer, Juliette, Jen and Miles show up.....

The Faraday Rule may not be as solid as Daniel thinks... or...

as I have posted...

What we are seeing is What was Supposed To Be.. and this would make changing it acceptable...

And what WE SAW.... 100 Days Island Time... should never have happened,.....

Reading your posts is like a shotgun blast to the brain man. Sometimes 3 seperate ideas all in the same sentence and usually rolling over 10-12 in some breathless manner without stopping to provide support for any. Calm down, focus, analyze, select a couple ideas and lets discuss.

-TH

Talontbo · 03-19-2009, 04:55 PM

hey Hook,

why is it you blame me for your inability to separate 3 ideas....???? in a single sentence..

Your post mentions The Losties Caused the Purge...

My first sentence clearly addresses this single Theory of yours

... I state,

That perhaps the opposite is true...

I then continue to try and support this thought by stating:

Perhaps Widmore orchestrated their return, knowing of the Unpredictability Hawking mentions.

The Orchestrating being:

Abaddon's mission to Help People Get To Where They belong.

We know Abaddon works for Widmore... or did you miss that part? You know.. where Abaddon reiterates how he manipulated Locke into getting on Flight 815?

Then I follow this up with:

Ben said... Moving the Island was Dangerous, "A Measure Of Last Resort". And yet, it would seem Widmore needed this to happen... for more than one reason... But the most important reason was to see the EMP... so it could be Detected in Antarctica... This would allow a more accurate calculation of WHERE THE ISLAND WOULD BE NEXT!!

Perhaps this is where you got LOST.... this simply ties in with Widmores Search for HIS LOST ISLAND....

I am guessing that you failed to realize that Widmore knew the Flight 815 Window was going to open.... Why else would Abaddon want Locke on the Flight 815>>>???? Setting all his plans in motion...

And this Links back to Hawking... as I stated above... She knew in advance that Desmond was the KEY to opening the Flight 815 Window.....

The remainder of my post to you was simply a continuation of the possible reason behing Widmore's madness...

But alas... I can only conclude you have issues with Big Pictures... and need them more define and small.... easily focused upon... graspable....

I am not sure I am capable of such limited and restrictive dissemination of my theories.

Clearly the fault lies with me. (smiles)

tailhook · 03-20-2009, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talontbo

hey Hook,

why is it you blame me for your inability to separate 3 ideas....???? in a single sentence..

Look... I was just being straight up with you. Feel free to post however you like, the inability to keep a coherent structure in your writing will simply mean we communicate in different languages. Was just warning you ahead of time I won't spend time trying to make sense of what you're saying. Previous post included. Its sad because I'm pretty sure there are good ideas in there and you seem like a nice enough person, otherwise I would have simply said nothing.

-TH

Talontbo · 03-20-2009, 03:38 AM

hey Hook,

Perhaps the next time you wish to be straight-up with someone, try leaving out the inflated melodramatics.

As for the style or structure of my posts, they are what they are, I try to cover a topic and included all the supporting evidence I can remember. This often spans the entire 4.5 seasons. And not always in a chronological order, because often, Lost has not provided the evidence in a coherent chronological order, what with Flashbacks, Flash Forwards and now, tagged time lines.

And though I accept your candor, I will not change the style of how I compose a post to this forum. If none of my posts get read by you or any other person, it won't hurt my feelings or make me anything less than I am. (smiles)

kellybee · 03-20-2009, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talontbo

Is it possible that the Time Line we saw from the opening Season One Episode was in fact what was not supposed to happen, and all the corrections will be made now???? so by the end of season 6.... Dharma is alive and thriving???? The Hostiles Foiled by their own meddling... ????

Stay Tuned... its sure to get weirder and weirder....

Yep, I think this is really interesting. The Faraday rule says you cant change the past, but if you are currently IN the past, you can surely change the future?

kellybee · 03-20-2009, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talontbo

Hey U2,,
both thoughts are quite provocative...

Hook... perhaps you thought (Losties caused the Purge) is in fact the opposite.. Widmore may be orchestrating this TO PREVENT THE PURGE..

He if fact Forced The Issue of moving the island by sending the Freighter... Abaddon also said He Help People Get To Where They Need To Be... obviously for Widmore...

Ben said... Moving the Island was Dangerous, "A Measure Of Last Resort". And yet, it would seem Widmore needed this to happen... for more than one reason... But the most important reason was to see the EMP... so it could be Detected in Antarctica... This would allow a more accurate calculation of WHERE THE ISLAND WOULD BE NEXT!!

Desmond Close Call... may not have be Fortuetous.. but Predicted by the All Knowing Crazy Jewelry Store Lady...

Ben has no real choice but to rely on her for his path back... and yet, we know she is also hooked up with Widmore... Where do Hawkings real Loyalties lay??? My guess is with Widmore...

Reason.... Widmore was on the Island long before Ben was recruited by Richard...

And here in lies the real question...

Is Widmore making a play to wrestle back the island and Remove Richard????

Fact is... Eliose was there.. we saw her.... so ask... why isn't she with Richard now??? Couls it be.. she is upset that Ben was installed as Leader and not Widmore???

BST,

Horace with Olivia,

I thought in a previous post that Ben and Linus SR had not been on the Island YET.. The Sayid exchange with Ben was a monkey in the wrench... be that as it may...

Things have in fact Changed Dramatically...

Lostpedia has noted Olivia as either Dead or Divorced from Horace... simple assumption with so little understanding or imagination....

We do not know how the JUMPS affected the future... Locke showing up in the early 50's.... could have drastically changed Richards previous Time Line... this could have easily been altered again when Sawyer spoke with him in 1974 and confirmed What Richards Thinks Happened...

These actions, subtle as they seem... could be Time Altering... And could have possibly change events just enough that Olivia is never even married to Horace. Of course... she could have simply died not long after Ben and Linus Sr come to the island... which now looks like close to 1974 and the same time Sawyer, Juliette, Jen and Miles show up.....

The Faraday Rule may not be as solid as Daniel thinks... or...

as I have posted...

What we are seeing is What was Supposed To Be.. and this would make changing it acceptable...

And what WE SAW.... 100 Days Island Time... should never have happened,.....

PS: This makes a lot of sense, I must be having a good day, lol

03-19-2009, 08:48 AM	#12
tailhook Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Peanut Gallery Posts: 1,832	Well, Given last nights episode I think the following is true. The presence of the Losties caused The Purge. I also think its clear that Sayid goes after Ben as a child to prevent the death of his wife, throwing the events leading to The Purge in motion. It is very likely that Ben both joined The Hostiles and caused The Purge out of self-defense. If thats the way they're headed.. they're also going to be running into casual-time issues if they don't split the timeline. Namely... effect will be preceding cause. In other words, if the Losties being there led to The The Purge(effect) then they did so before they ever went back in time in the first place(cause). In order to avoid this you would have to have a split-timeline of which both dovetailed to the same point(course correction), but having very different histories. The problem with this is they may try to tie in that the reason both Widmore and Ben wanted The Losties to get back was that they had met them previously in the past. Ben specifically may have been driven to believe the Oceanic 6 never left the Island and were never supposed to leave the island because he had encountered them in the past and it was the primary reason he tried so hard not to get them to leave. You have two competing philosophies and they're treading on very dangerous ground here and if they don't do it in a way that sorts these issues out the story is not going to hold up. -TH __________________ I am the Multi-Quote Master. Feel my wrath.

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03-18-2009, 05:27 PM	#11
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	hey Bunny, Not sure we will see a lot of Horace from here on out.. But one thing is for sure... There is a SPLIT TIME LINE.... Hawking warned of the UNPREDICTABILITY of returning to the Island in a manner not consistent with the first journey... AARON, was clearly missing... You observation of the Nose Bleed suffered by Horace was right on the money... DREAM or MEMORY???? This is something I have stated in another thread.... The Vision Locke had when he saw Yemi's Plane, while in the Jungle with Boone... VISION or MEMORY???? We know he saw Yemi's plane crash during one of the Jumps... he followed it and was shot by Ethan.. only to jump again and meet Richard... Richard tells Locke it was in fact Locke that told him he would be there... Did we miss some Jumps??? my guess... yes, we missed some.. As for Linus Sr.... when Horace first met him, he was young and had just lost his wife giving birth to Ben.... perhaps Horace wasn't aware of the personal conflicts Linus Sr. was suffering from some 12 yrs later... The time they came to the island.. This brings up you thought regarding Olivia... it could be we haven;t seen that yet.. as it hasn't occured... We are currently seeing Dharma.. PRE YOUNG BEN!!!! or so it would seem...as no mention by Juliette, Sawyer or Jin has been made while spending 3 yrs waitng for friends to show up... The we have Locke in Now Time it appears... The Enhanced version is specific to say... Caesar was searching Ben's Office on Hydra... Ben is clearly POST PURGE!!! Guess Hawking was correct... The Entry into the Window was in fact Unpredictable.. But here is the crazy thing.. Jack... in 1977 Dharma Time.. will he see Christian>>> his dad.. who by all acounts is not Dead Yet????

03-19-2009, 10:28 AM	#13
BSTMSTR Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 31	I think Horace definately knew about Ben when they happened to be driving along the road and stumbled across the Linus's in need of help... Just like Ethan and Richard cherry-picked Juliet with the knowledge that she was to be the one to help give birth to Ethan... But as far as Horace and Olivia being a married couple... assumptions?... I can't remember if she was introduced as his wife or not... but either way, they could have just been working together... and lied about their relationship... If Dharma was compromised, remember that the fish usually stinks from the head back... Horace is on a first name basis with Richard... Locke's vision of him is wearing a Dharma suit, but building Jacob's cabin... and Jacob is the so-called leader of the Others... I speculate that Horace was once a Hostile now too! Born on the island, himself, maybe...

03-19-2009, 01:34 PM	#14
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	Hey U2,, both thoughts are quite provocative... Hook... perhaps you thought (Losties caused the Purge) is in fact the opposite.. Widmore may be orchestrating this TO PREVENT THE PURGE.. He if fact Forced The Issue of moving the island by sending the Freighter... Abaddon also said He Help People Get To Where They Need To Be... obviously for Widmore... Ben said... Moving the Island was Dangerous, "A Measure Of Last Resort". And yet, it would seem Widmore needed this to happen... for more than one reason... But the most important reason was to see the EMP... so it could be Detected in Antarctica... This would allow a more accurate calculation of WHERE THE ISLAND WOULD BE NEXT!! Desmond Close Call... may not have be Fortuetous.. but Predicted by the All Knowing Crazy Jewelry Store Lady... Ben has no real choice but to rely on her for his path back... and yet, we know she is also hooked up with Widmore... Where do Hawkings real Loyalties lay??? My guess is with Widmore... Reason.... Widmore was on the Island long before Ben was recruited by Richard... And here in lies the real question... Is Widmore making a play to wrestle back the island and Remove Richard???? Fact is... Eliose was there.. we saw her.... so ask... why isn't she with Richard now??? Couls it be.. she is upset that Ben was installed as Leader and not Widmore??? BST, Horace with Olivia, I thought in a previous post that Ben and Linus SR had not been on the Island YET.. The Sayid exchange with Ben was a monkey in the wrench... be that as it may... Things have in fact Changed Dramatically... Lostpedia has noted Olivia as either Dead or Divorced from Horace... simple assumption with so little understanding or imagination.... We do not know how the JUMPS affected the future... Locke showing up in the early 50's.... could have drastically changed Richards previous Time Line... this could have easily been altered again when Sawyer spoke with him in 1974 and confirmed What Richards Thinks Happened... These actions, subtle as they seem... could be Time Altering... And could have possibly change events just enough that Olivia is never even married to Horace. Of course... she could have simply died not long after Ben and Linus Sr come to the island... which now looks like close to 1974 and the same time Sawyer, Juliette, Jen and Miles show up..... The Faraday Rule may not be as solid as Daniel thinks... or... as I have posted... What we are seeing is What was Supposed To Be.. and this would make changing it acceptable... And what WE SAW.... 100 Days Island Time... should never have happened,.....

03-19-2009, 04:55 PM	#16
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	hey Hook, why is it you blame me for your inability to separate 3 ideas....???? in a single sentence.. Your post mentions The Losties Caused the Purge... My first sentence clearly addresses this single Theory of yours ... I state, That perhaps the opposite is true... I then continue to try and support this thought by stating: Perhaps Widmore orchestrated their return, knowing of the Unpredictability Hawking mentions. The Orchestrating being: Abaddon's mission to Help People Get To Where They belong. We know Abaddon works for Widmore... or did you miss that part? You know.. where Abaddon reiterates how he manipulated Locke into getting on Flight 815? Then I follow this up with: Ben said... Moving the Island was Dangerous, "A Measure Of Last Resort". And yet, it would seem Widmore needed this to happen... for more than one reason... But the most important reason was to see the EMP... so it could be Detected in Antarctica... This would allow a more accurate calculation of WHERE THE ISLAND WOULD BE NEXT!! Perhaps this is where you got LOST.... this simply ties in with Widmores Search for HIS LOST ISLAND.... I am guessing that you failed to realize that Widmore knew the Flight 815 Window was going to open.... Why else would Abaddon want Locke on the Flight 815>>>???? Setting all his plans in motion... And this Links back to Hawking... as I stated above... She knew in advance that Desmond was the KEY to opening the Flight 815 Window..... The remainder of my post to you was simply a continuation of the possible reason behing Widmore's madness... But alas... I can only conclude you have issues with Big Pictures... and need them more define and small.... easily focused upon... graspable.... I am not sure I am capable of such limited and restrictive dissemination of my theories. Clearly the fault lies with me. (smiles)

03-20-2009, 03:38 AM	#18
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	hey Hook, Perhaps the next time you wish to be straight-up with someone, try leaving out the inflated melodramatics. As for the style or structure of my posts, they are what they are, I try to cover a topic and included all the supporting evidence I can remember. This often spans the entire 4.5 seasons. And not always in a chronological order, because often, Lost has not provided the evidence in a coherent chronological order, what with Flashbacks, Flash Forwards and now, tagged time lines. And though I accept your candor, I will not change the style of how I compose a post to this forum. If none of my posts get read by you or any other person, it won't hurt my feelings or make me anything less than I am. (smiles)