Reincarnation - Page 3

Talontbo · 05-09-2008, 11:00 AM

hey Erikua..

so you know... I do not discount your thoughts.. I consider them.. and digest them.. I accept this as a possibility... and I expect the same consideration for my interpretations.. both are reasonable and rational... both are thought out... Mine has more supporting evidence.. to be sure.. yours allows for a greater amount of mystical acceptance... and with LOST this must be taken into consideration as well...

I think or at least I hope.. this will be addressed... because from both points of view both appear to be possible... this show has allowed for so many ultranatural happenings that both the face value and the faith value are part of the game....

as for the Blessed Children theme you propose... again one could easily argue...

are all the Special People going to have the same background... probably not.. how do we separate them???

jack see Daddy
Claire se daddy
Ben sees mommy
Locke sees mommy...

etc etc etc....

even Rose knew right away.. the Island Gifted Her... whats her deal growing up???

to many questions there for my brain to rap around... Good Evil... how do we tell yet... ????

so on that i will wait.... as well.... but this has been very fun... I will keep exploring your idea...about a more Cyclical aspect.. but I honestly have to say... it is a reach for me....

by the way.. the White Light.. was when emily was struck by the car... and nothing indicated she was near death... as a matter of fact.. when on the gurney.. it looked as though at best she was knocked out.. didn;t even break a leg....or an arm.. and then gave birth... fully conscious... I might add... White Light.. scene change.. Head Lights... not Come Into The Light...... LOL>>>>>>

erikau · 05-09-2008, 11:04 AM

T, the Island won't let you die if it doesn't want you to. The fact that she was hit by a car and woke up with no obvious injuries is highly suspect to me...and to me tells me she was being protected then.

And I like your ideas too, I'm just pushy with my own haha.

rivum · 05-09-2008, 11:18 AM

if i could intraject for a moment....
it seems that the fundamental differences between the two of you is that talontbo thinks richard says BELONGED, while ericau thinks he said BELONGS.
both of you have reasonable interpretations, assuming what each of you thought you heard was correct.
so it seems to me that if we can sort out whether richard said BELONGED or BELONGS, we'll be able to support one theory and give less creedance to the other.
not that i don't enjoy the conversations/arguments between the two of you - they're always enlightening, and certainly entertaining!

Talontbo · 05-09-2008, 11:22 AM

hey Erikua...

I fully accept that the Island would not let her die before John is born... no argument.. but the White Light for the Shared Trip To Island Past ... through Mommy.. not sure i can even go there... that said..

It would not surprise me to see.. written somewhere by someone.. a study of transfered memories from Mother to child... I just don;t buy it.. not in reality.. not in fiction... this is not like the Love of Garlic being passed on through an umbilical cord..

and wasn't that cool tool... The Island is still keeping Michael Alive... that sure does answer the Did Tom Switch Guns in the Alley thoughts.... heheheh

Talontbo · 05-09-2008, 11:30 AM

hey Rivum...

i posted the exact words used by Richard... not what I heard... though I will say.. I have excellent hearing.. I will repost all in order...

this can easily be rewatched at ABC.COM

"Did you draw that John"... (referring to the picture of a person and black tornado)

John nods to affirm... Richard has a knowing look on his face.

from the moment they sit down..

Richard lays out items...in order... and while saying

"I want you to look at these things and think about em"... as he is laying them out

Glove, Bible (Book of laws), Sand Bottle, Old Compass, Old Comic, Old Knife

when done laying them out.. Richard continues...

"Kay, Now tell me John... which of these things belonged to you"

John replies... "To Keep"

Richard."no no John. which of these things belonged to you (pause) already"

John.. then proceeds to select first the sand bottle sliding it closer to him.. then he picks up and studies the old compass.. set it down...

looks.. and then picks up the knife and studies that..

Richard..

"you sure the knife belongs to you John?" "you sure about that?"

Locke... nods yes

Richard turns his head.. clearly upset. The grabs the knife out of Lockes hand and says.

"Well it doesn't"

this is the exact exchange.. and is verbatim unless I missed a cut and past... will go back for the 8th time to rewatch and confirm I haven't missed a word.,...

Talontbo · 05-09-2008, 11:48 AM

hey Rivum

Erikua is not really incorrect if you observe her argument from her perspective..

and using Cyclical Time as a description is probably less accurate than using the term Momentary Time...

let me explain...

it could easily be said..

That all Time is a single Moment.. and has no linear base or direction...

that all events are contained within a single moment.. that Past, Present and Future occupy this moment.. and all happen simultaneously...

That if you were an Outside Observer (Richard).. you could peer in and select a single moment to examine at your pleasure... and that for those In The Moment.. a few select people could perhaps experience many events from all the events in the single moment that makes up Momentary Time....(Blessed Island List People)....

erikau · 05-09-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talontbo

hey Erikua...

I fully accept that the Island would not let her die before John is born... no argument.. but the White Light for the Shared Trip To Island Past ... through Mommy.. not sure i can even go there... that said..

It would not surprise me to see.. written somewhere by someone.. a study of transfered memories from Mother to child... I just don;t buy it.. not in reality.. not in fiction... this is not like the Love of Garlic being passed on through an umbilical cord..

and wasn't that cool tool... The Island is still keeping Michael Alive... that sure does answer the Did Tom Switch Guns in the Alley thoughts.... heheheh

Oh, I don't think the memories were transferred. I think it is CRUCIAL that if I am correct, and Emily Locke is Emily Linus, that both near death experiences (well, actual death experience for Linus haha) took place at or near the time of birth. Thus, I don't think that Ben and Locke have memories gained from their mother, but gained THROUGH their mother because they were brought to the Island with her, since they were inside her at that point. In other words, Locke first goes to the Island when Em Locke is hit by a car and has a n.d.e and he is an unborn. Ben first goes when he mother is dying while giving birth and he is being born. Like I said, this idea is based on ideas that I've gotten from previous episodes, but I think those previous episodes with seemingly unnecessary stories like Charlotte Malkin's were paving the way for this.

To take it a small step further, it could be said that this was the plan for Locke all along. If you are correct and Alpert was responsible for Em Locke being hit by a car: WHY?!?!?! He OBVIOUSLY wants Locke, so why would he have tried to kill his mother? OR, knowing that he couldn't have killed her, then WHY would he hit her? I'll tell you why haha: He did it to send her and unborn Locke to the Island, and later came back to check up on his progress and see how he was doing in connecting with his inner, special Island self. (Maybe some kids can do it better than others can. Walt seemed to be having problems in real life because his powers WERE manifesting and he couldn't control them...he needed to be schooled and so BAM! he was on the Island)

Add to that that in Cabin Fever, we get pretty much SOLID proof that death is not really death, with both Horace and Christian's interactions with Locke. On top of that, with Horace, the time loop, and the nose bleeds, we get presented the idea that death and consciousness travelling are linked somehow. Charlie's on0island death, but real world manifestations lead me to this conclusion as well. I know it all highly speculative and circumstantial...but boy do I think I might have it haha.

Also, I agree! I love that the writer's pretty much put up a neon sign that said "THE GUN WASN'T TAMPERED WITH. YOU CAN'T DIE UNLESS THE ISLAND LETS YOU!" hahaha

yerbero · 05-09-2008, 12:42 PM

I think that last nights lost revealed the concept of rebirth as a means of avoiding "permanent" death. The smoke monster is refered to as CEREBRUS on the swan hatch door . . .CEREBRUS is the three headed monster that guards the entrance (or exit) to the afterlife . . . so I think that island dwelers (pre dharma - and dharma is now aware of their secrets and use them) have found away to "die" and be reborn in another body. Locke has obviosuly been on the island before in another life, under another name. Alperts mission was to track down this dweller who has been reborn into lockes body, which is why locke has this affinity to the island. Lockes vision as a child of the smoke monster is because he has seen it before - in his previous life, on the island. Its why alpert asked him to identify his things . . . to test his memory from the previos life. Its also why patchy and bea klough werent afraid to "die" they knew that they it would be "temporary". I think that widemore is hanso, who died and has been reborn several times . ..but on one of his dealings off the island, ben took advantage of him being off the island and "hid" it (the island) from widemore, who is now stuck off the island, and desperatly needs to get back to halt his aging via the islands properties, or undergo another "rebirth" . . similar to the skeleton key

Talontbo · 05-09-2008, 12:59 PM

so... it appears Yerbero... is for reincarnation... and I have to say... provides a compelling theory that goes beyond the simple.. Yerbero expands into the obvious that is so often over looked... Widmore.. "My Island"... and sees things right in front of us... Ben stealing everything he has from Widmore...

but I have to say... would Locke.. once he is in the know... still wish to protect the Island...???? fro whos sake??? His own??? Bens??? his friends??? Jacobs???

Jacob perhaps enlisted Ben first.. to rid the island of Widmore... then Jacob has now decided to rid the Island of Ben... in favor of Locke...

or.. is Widmore.. still somehow in touch enough to manipulate all that happens.. even from his London Base...???

still a ton of questions...

Talontbo · 05-09-2008, 02:57 PM

OriginalNes posted to another thread.. that the Test conducted by Richard on Young Locke is similar to and used by Tibetans.. for the selecting of the next Dali Lama.. Spiritual Tibetan Leader... as a Reincarnation of the previous Dali Lama.. this is also described on Wikipedia.. as a search for the Mindstream..

excerpt...:::
Upon the death of the Dalai Lama and consultation with the Nechung Oracle, a search for the Lama's reincarnation, or yangsi (yang srid), is conducted. Familiarity with the possessions or attributes of the previous Dalai Lama is considered the main sign of the tulku. The search for the reincarnated mindstream typically requires a number of years. The reincarnated being is then installed and trained by the other Lamas.

This only fortifies the impression and interpretation the scene displays of Young John Locke and Richard...

and yet leaves open the question.. if Richard was so sure...being there for the birth.. and then approx 6-7 years later.. why did Locke fail the test??? and then know is assuming some portion of responsibility over the Island????

05-09-2008, 12:42 PM	#28
yerbero Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2	rebirth I think that last nights lost revealed the concept of rebirth as a means of avoiding "permanent" death. The smoke monster is refered to as CEREBRUS on the swan hatch door . . .CEREBRUS is the three headed monster that guards the entrance (or exit) to the afterlife . . . so I think that island dwelers (pre dharma - and dharma is now aware of their secrets and use them) have found away to "die" and be reborn in another body. Locke has obviosuly been on the island before in another life, under another name. Alperts mission was to track down this dweller who has been reborn into lockes body, which is why locke has this affinity to the island. Lockes vision as a child of the smoke monster is because he has seen it before - in his previous life, on the island. Its why alpert asked him to identify his things . . . to test his memory from the previos life. Its also why patchy and bea klough werent afraid to "die" they knew that they it would be "temporary". I think that widemore is hanso, who died and has been reborn several times . ..but on one of his dealings off the island, ben took advantage of him being off the island and "hid" it (the island) from widemore, who is now stuck off the island, and desperatly needs to get back to halt his aging via the islands properties, or undergo another "rebirth" . . similar to the skeleton key

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05-09-2008, 11:00 AM	#21
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	hey Erikua.. so you know... I do not discount your thoughts.. I consider them.. and digest them.. I accept this as a possibility... and I expect the same consideration for my interpretations.. both are reasonable and rational... both are thought out... Mine has more supporting evidence.. to be sure.. yours allows for a greater amount of mystical acceptance... and with LOST this must be taken into consideration as well... I think or at least I hope.. this will be addressed... because from both points of view both appear to be possible... this show has allowed for so many ultranatural happenings that both the face value and the faith value are part of the game.... as for the Blessed Children theme you propose... again one could easily argue... are all the Special People going to have the same background... probably not.. how do we separate them??? jack see Daddy Claire se daddy Ben sees mommy Locke sees mommy... etc etc etc.... even Rose knew right away.. the Island Gifted Her... whats her deal growing up??? to many questions there for my brain to rap around... Good Evil... how do we tell yet... ???? so on that i will wait.... as well.... but this has been very fun... I will keep exploring your idea...about a more Cyclical aspect.. but I honestly have to say... it is a reach for me.... by the way.. the White Light.. was when emily was struck by the car... and nothing indicated she was near death... as a matter of fact.. when on the gurney.. it looked as though at best she was knocked out.. didn;t even break a leg....or an arm.. and then gave birth... fully conscious... I might add... White Light.. scene change.. Head Lights... not Come Into The Light...... LOL>>>>>>

05-09-2008, 11:04 AM	#22
erikau Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 419	T, the Island won't let you die if it doesn't want you to. The fact that she was hit by a car and woke up with no obvious injuries is highly suspect to me...and to me tells me she was being protected then. And I like your ideas too, I'm just pushy with my own haha.

05-09-2008, 11:18 AM	#23
rivum Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 114	if i could intraject for a moment.... it seems that the fundamental differences between the two of you is that talontbo thinks richard says BELONGED, while ericau thinks he said BELONGS. both of you have reasonable interpretations, assuming what each of you thought you heard was correct. so it seems to me that if we can sort out whether richard said BELONGED or BELONGS, we'll be able to support one theory and give less creedance to the other. not that i don't enjoy the conversations/arguments between the two of you - they're always enlightening, and certainly entertaining!

05-09-2008, 11:22 AM	#24
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	hey Erikua... I fully accept that the Island would not let her die before John is born... no argument.. but the White Light for the Shared Trip To Island Past ... through Mommy.. not sure i can even go there... that said.. It would not surprise me to see.. written somewhere by someone.. a study of transfered memories from Mother to child... I just don;t buy it.. not in reality.. not in fiction... this is not like the Love of Garlic being passed on through an umbilical cord.. and wasn't that cool tool... The Island is still keeping Michael Alive... that sure does answer the Did Tom Switch Guns in the Alley thoughts.... heheheh

05-09-2008, 11:30 AM	#25
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	hey Rivum... i posted the exact words used by Richard... not what I heard... though I will say.. I have excellent hearing.. I will repost all in order... this can easily be rewatched at ABC.COM "Did you draw that John"... (referring to the picture of a person and black tornado) John nods to affirm... Richard has a knowing look on his face. from the moment they sit down.. Richard lays out items...in order... and while saying "I want you to look at these things and think about em"... as he is laying them out Glove, Bible (Book of laws), Sand Bottle, Old Compass, Old Comic, Old Knife when done laying them out.. Richard continues... "Kay, Now tell me John... which of these things belonged to you" John replies... "To Keep" Richard."no no John. which of these things belonged to you (pause) already" John.. then proceeds to select first the sand bottle sliding it closer to him.. then he picks up and studies the old compass.. set it down... looks.. and then picks up the knife and studies that.. Richard.. "you sure the knife belongs to you John?" "you sure about that?" Locke... nods yes Richard turns his head.. clearly upset. The grabs the knife out of Lockes hand and says. "Well it doesn't" this is the exact exchange.. and is verbatim unless I missed a cut and past... will go back for the 8th time to rewatch and confirm I haven't missed a word.,...

05-09-2008, 11:48 AM	#26
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	hey Rivum Erikua is not really incorrect if you observe her argument from her perspective.. and using Cyclical Time as a description is probably less accurate than using the term Momentary Time... let me explain... it could easily be said.. That all Time is a single Moment.. and has no linear base or direction... that all events are contained within a single moment.. that Past, Present and Future occupy this moment.. and all happen simultaneously... That if you were an Outside Observer (Richard).. you could peer in and select a single moment to examine at your pleasure... and that for those In The Moment.. a few select people could perhaps experience many events from all the events in the single moment that makes up Momentary Time....(Blessed Island List People)....

05-09-2008, 12:59 PM	#29
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	so... it appears Yerbero... is for reincarnation... and I have to say... provides a compelling theory that goes beyond the simple.. Yerbero expands into the obvious that is so often over looked... Widmore.. "My Island"... and sees things right in front of us... Ben stealing everything he has from Widmore... but I have to say... would Locke.. once he is in the know... still wish to protect the Island...???? fro whos sake??? His own??? Bens??? his friends??? Jacobs??? Jacob perhaps enlisted Ben first.. to rid the island of Widmore... then Jacob has now decided to rid the Island of Ben... in favor of Locke... or.. is Widmore.. still somehow in touch enough to manipulate all that happens.. even from his London Base...??? still a ton of questions...

05-09-2008, 02:57 PM	#30
Talontbo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 730	OriginalNes posted to another thread.. that the Test conducted by Richard on Young Locke is similar to and used by Tibetans.. for the selecting of the next Dali Lama.. Spiritual Tibetan Leader... as a Reincarnation of the previous Dali Lama.. this is also described on Wikipedia.. as a search for the Mindstream.. excerpt...::: Upon the death of the Dalai Lama and consultation with the Nechung Oracle, a search for the Lama's reincarnation, or yangsi (yang srid), is conducted. Familiarity with the possessions or attributes of the previous Dalai Lama is considered the main sign of the tulku. The search for the reincarnated mindstream typically requires a number of years. The reincarnated being is then installed and trained by the other Lamas. This only fortifies the impression and interpretation the scene displays of Young John Locke and Richard... and yet leaves open the question.. if Richard was so sure...being there for the birth.. and then approx 6-7 years later.. why did Locke fail the test??? and then know is assuming some portion of responsibility over the Island????